Show Notes

Rebecca Ray: Welcome to Episode 21 lovely ones. I’m talking with Georgie Collinson. In this conversation about living a brave life alongside fear, doubt and self-sabotage. I talk a lot about my personal journey in this chat, and how I use courage as a foundation to face challenges without getting paralysed.

Rebecca Ray: Georgie Collinson is an anxiety mindset coach, a gut health expert and nutritionist. After years of struggling with her own anxiety in her early 20s, she discovered an effective holistic approach and developed the anxiety reset method, a system that considers anxiety from the thoughts you think the food you eat, the state of your gut health, and your hormones and lifestyle. I hope you enjoy this conversation.

Georgie Collinson: Well, Rebecca, I’m so excited to have you here. You are really an inspiration to me, and I love all of the, you know, content, you put out the way you help people, you obviously, you know, have such a passion for this work.

Georgie Collinson: I want to start I know, you’ve just started your own podcast, which is amazing. Hello, Rebecca Ray.

Rebecca Ray: That’s right.

Georgie Collinson: Excellent. I’m gonna have that linked in the show notes for people to come and find it. What is the Is there a key message that you want to share with that podcast? Or in general?

Rebecca Ray: That’s a really interesting question, because the podcast is a different space.

Rebecca Ray: For me, the point of the podcast is, for me to be able to show up a little more personally, one of the things that I often feel online and on social media is that text can sometimes be just the slightest bit impersonal.

Rebecca Ray: And so I wanted to be able to offer my community a connection with me, even if they are not in a position to be able to afford my programmes, or even perhaps buy a book.

Rebecca Ray: The podcast was my way of being able to show up a little bit more, just as Beck, you know?

Rebecca Ray: So I think my there’s no overarching message other than the message that underpins all my work, which is how we go about the task of living bravely and meaningfully as human beings, and all the challenges that come with that. But for me, personally, the message is about the fact that I’m human first, and psychologist second.

Rebecca Ray: And that podcast is a vessel for me to be able to communicate in a personal way to my community to explain that.

Georgie Collinson: That’s so beautiful. I love that. And I love how you said human first psychologist second, because I think sometimes there can be this feeling that the the psychologist has it all together and knows everything, but then like, doesn’t ever, you know, deal with challenges in life and, and all the human stuff. And I personally think it’s important that we we understand that we’re all human right?

Rebecca Ray: And I don’t I mean, obviously, the way that we’re trained, or maybe it’s not obvious in the way that we’re trained as psychologists, it’s very much about being a blank canvas in the therapy space, where it’s not about you, it’s about the client, and you foster an alliance and therapeutic relationship with the client so that they’re able to work through their stuff.

Rebecca Ray: We’re certainly trained to minimise self disclosure, and to only self disclose if it’s in the service, of helping the client move through something or creating some kind of shift. And so I’ve come from train, a trading world and also a professional space where talking about my own story was frowned upon. And I did very little of it.

Rebecca Ray: And so in this reestablishment of myself as a psychologist, online, and as a psychologist, no longer in private practice, I have had to find my feet again, I guess and find where I sit with regards to what I want to share and what the messages are.

Rebecca Ray: And for me, I just can’t continue with a hands off approach. I don’t want there to be a brick wall in between me and someone else that’s reading my work or at coming to meet my work.

Rebecca Ray: And so first and foremost, I mean, when I was in private practice, I was always still talking about the fact that ss humans, we all struggle, we all have discomfort.

Rebecca Ray: But what I have the space to be able to do now is to get a little bit more specific about that discomfort and my experience of it, to be able to use storytelling as a method of transformation for other people.

Georgie Collinson: That’s so beautiful. And I love that you, you know that that is being brave, isn’t it and being sort of trying to toe that line of, of where am I you know, overstepping where I might be no longer supporting a therapeutic style relationship with someone, and also allowing them into your world and and letting them say that and bringing that from the general of life we all struggle too.

Georgie Collinson: Okay, well, here’s where I struggled.

Rebecca Ray: Yeah, yeah, that’s right. There’s, there’s the line is different. Now. I mean, I’m still a clinical psychologist, I’m still registered. But because I’m no longer seeing clients, I’m in a position where my role has changed. And I’ve intentionally changed that role.

Rebecca Ray: So I see myself more as an educator now. And as part of that education, I use my own experience to inform that and also to be able to connect in a different way with people so that they understand that they’re not alone.

Rebecca Ray: But also, other people don’t have it all figured out, you know, there’s not, there’s not some secret to being human that other people know, and you don’t know.

Rebecca Ray: So I guess that’s, that’s where I use it. And also, none of the work that I do now constitutes a therapeutic relationship. So things are actually very different. And that’s why I see my role differently.

Rebecca Ray: I’m still talking about psychological concepts, but in a way that is easily translatable to and relatable to daily experience, rather than treating a psychological problem in a person that’s been referred to me by their GP.

Georgie Collinson:Yeah, yep. So there’s, there’s that, you know, you’re really providing that accessibility to these psychological concepts and things which is so helpful for people, I think just it doesn’t replace therapy.

Georgie Collinson: But it’s, it’s, it’s a certainly a nice support for someone to kind of see a quote or understand, you know, these kind of ideas about especially when it comes to comparison to other people and thinking that what’s going on in our head is totally different and weird to everyone else, and were the only one struggling I think that’s so so key.

Georgie Collinson: And so, if there was a something you wish that more more women knew. And you could just insert this into all the women’s brains, what would it be?

Rebecca Ray: It would be that in order to be able to choose courage, you need to have fear sitting beside you as well.

Georgie Collinson: So good.

Rebecca Ray: So, if I could insert anything into any human’s brain, whether they’re a woman, or a man or non binary, or however they identify, it would be the key concept, that fearlessness is bullshit, unless you’re a sociopath, or unless you’ve had a particular kind of brain injury.

Rebecca Ray: Fearlessness is impossible, we are actually wired to feel free for a very good reason, because it helps us to survive. But courage doesn’t show up. Unless fear is there in the first place, you can’t have one without the other.

Rebecca Ray: So if you’re going to live bravely, whatever that means for you, my definition might be different to you based on our experiences, and based on what we like and based on what we consider our potential to be and based on what our hopes and dreams are.

Rebecca Ray: But if you want to pursue courage in that way, then you need to find a way to accept that fear will always be present.

Rebecca Ray: And that doesn’t mean that anything’s wrong with you, it doesn’t mean that you’ve got an anxiety disorder, it just means that to step outside your comfort zone and to widen that comfort zone, you experience the very real and very reasoned experiences state base level of fear that we all experience when we need courage to show up.

Rebecca Ray: So if you’re going to go down the shop and get some milk, then you know, you don’t really need courage to do that. If that’s part of your daily activities, you know, it’s not a thing.

Rebecca Ray: But if you’re going to leave your nine to five job and start your own business, then and that’s completely foreign to you then you might need a whole lot of bravery should be able to do that and you’re going to feel scared at the same time.

Rebecca Ray: So we are animals of duality really like it our emotional experience is often featured as something that’s a jewel experience.

Rebecca Ray: We experienced this and we experienced that the scared parts of you might be there, but the brave parts of you were there as well.

Georgie Collinson: Aw I love that it’s like, you know and it’s it’s it’s that idea as well of like, there are good parts in life and there are bad parts in life.

Georgie Collinson: It’s all you can bring this this jewel experience concept so so vastly too. But my my question for you is what does leaving bravely or courageously mean for you in your life?

Rebecca Ray: It’s meant so many different things that so many different times.

Rebecca Ray: From everything from changing careers to so when I was younger, I actually started studying psychology at uni. And while I was doing that I learned to fly. So I became a pilot. And I was going to pursue flying as a career.

Rebecca Ray: But I had to really acknowledge that that wasn’t a good fit for me as a human being and someone that really likes routine and stability, there is not routine instability in aviation, because things change every single day that are outside of your control.

Rebecca Ray: And so I had to, you know, face what I consider to be a huge failure after a lot of money was spent on my Flying Training to them return to psychology.

Rebecca Ray: But then I went into private practice, and, you know, did all my training, did private practice for years, did way too much of it, and ended up getting burnt out.

Rebecca Ray: So again, I faced a huge amount of failure, I did not expect my client treatment, part of my practice to end so early in my career.

Rebecca Ray: And I considered that for a long time to be a failure, and had to reframe that to go hold on a second.

Rebecca Ray: Actually, what’s possible here?

Rebecca Ray: And so for me, turning that around to then be able to leave, or create, I guess, create an entirely new career out of training that already existed in skills that already existed within my competency and skill set was something that I had to kind of create out of nowhere.

Rebecca Ray: And all during all that time, I unexpectedly fell in love with a woman. And that was while I was trying to meet the right men, you know, I was trying to find the man that fit for me, I thought I was going to be single for the rest of my life.

Rebecca Ray: And along came Nyssa. And probably the bravest thing I’ve ever done is let myself fall in love with her, despite the fact that she represented absolutely nothing about the six foot four cowboy, but I thought it was going to come along and sweep me off into the sunset, you know.

Rebecca Ray: And then on top of that, we had a baby. So I was never someone who was maternal. I never wanted children. And yet, when I found a love, like I’ve got with Nyssa, that level of emotional safety was something I had never ever experienced in my life.

Rebecca Ray: And that opened up again, all sorts of possibilities that I had never imagined for myself. Like, if we’ve got this love, then is it possible we could share it with a child?

Rebecca Ray: So for me, it’s a really long answer. But I think I would summarise it by saying what living bravely and courageously means for me is looking towards possibility and allowing myself to imagine how much, how good Could it be like?

Georgie Collinson: Yeah.

Rebecca Ray: How? Like, I think honestly, what I do is I give myself permission to imagine I give myself permission to think, what if the potentials even better than you can conceive of right now?

Rebecca Ray: What would it look like to live into that? That’s what I do. That’s the summary.

Georgie Collinson: Yeah. Oh, my gosh, thank you so much for sharing all of that. Because what a wonderful answer that is to that question.

Georgie Collinson: And I think honestly, what it shows and what always inspires his sense of or in me, is looking at how we think our life is going to go a certain way. And we have this blueprint for our life.

Georgie Collinson: And so many of us get so much distress and despair because we our life ends up going off the plan wasn’t on the blueprint.

Georgie Collinson: But then where the magic is in all of this. And what you’ve just shown with your story is how it can unfold in an unexpected way. And even better than what you ever would have planned.

Rebecca Ray: Yeah, and that’s exactly what’s happened is, but I wouldn’t say that it’s been comfortable. You know, it’s not like I’ve just gone from amazing thing to amazing thing.

Rebecca Ray: In fact, what’s happened is I’ve almost at times in my life, driven myself into a corner, backed myself into a corner where I’ve had no choice but to accept failure or what I framed as failure at the time.

Rebecca Ray: And certainly when I met this, I’ll be completely honest, there was part of my experience that was going have I think failed because I’ve not been able to find a man. That’s how conditioned I was, to this Western ideal of, you know, you should have a man by certain age and 2.4 children and an SUV in the driveway, you know, like, apparently that’s what we do.

Rebecca Ray: And when Nyssa came along it actually it took me, it took me a few months of therapy actually went into therapy, to find the permission to allow myself to love her.

Rebecca Ray: I sat there in the therapy room with my psychologist and said, but this isn’t what I wanted. It’s not what I was asking for.

Rebecca Ray: This is not how my life was meant to go. And yet, it’s better than I could have ever imagined. Who knew that love like this existed?

Rebecca Ray: But hold on, it’s different. So am I allowed to have it? Like, is it okay?

Rebecca Ray: And so those, again, we’re talking about jus ality, we’re talking about things that can be so incredibly good if you give yourself permission to explore them.

Rebecca Ray: And for me, that’s always come from a place of backing myself into a corner. So I don’t know whether I unconsciously do that.

Rebecca Ray: So I’ve got no choice but to look elsewhere for other possibilities. But at that stage, when I met you, sir, I had backed myself into a corner where I believed I was going to be single for the rest of my life at the ripe old age of 33.

Rebecca Ray: And I was, so my task I’d set myself was if he can be single, forever, then just have a great life. And I started ticking things off my bucket list.

Rebecca Ray: And one of those things was to go back and learn piano and I rang the local music school and said, I want to learn piano.

Rebecca Ray: The only time I’ve got four lessons is on Saturday mornings, and they said, Okay, Nyssa is your teacher. Your lesson is at 9:30. I think it was on a Saturday morning, I went okay, turned up for my lesson. And eight weeks later, I was like, why am I obsessed with this woman?

Rebecca Ray: And she never left, really. And I still can’t play piano, but that’s okay. Because she’s a musician. So she plays it for me.

Georgie Collinson: Oh, my gosh, isn’t it interesting how our minds like to, you know, have the we’re so limited in just what we’ve experienced and what we know.

Georgie Collinson: And you know, until we have that kind of eye opening experience of Hold on, maybe it could be this way. We just stay in our in our little box.

Georgie Collinson: And especially I think you just hit the nail on the head within society were sold this lie basically that if you have if you take this off, and that and that you can be happy.

Georgie Collinson: And then I think where other people can potentially find themselves in a in a troubling situations when they have ticked off all those things.

Georgie Collinson: Like why aren’t I happy?

Rebecca Ray: Yeah. Why is everybody else happy because they’re looking at someone’s curation, social media feed. And they’re convinced that that person has it all sorted out, because they’ve got a family photo where they’re all wearing, you know, colour coordinated outfits like, this is what we’re fed on a daily basis.

Rebecca Ray: And, and I really want to clarify for our listeners, because kind of sounds like I’m describing lots of amazing things. And I’ve managed to stay in this amazing headspace. I’m talking to you as a seasoned pessimist.

Rebecca Ray: I am actually I lean on the continuum of optimism, realism and pessimism, I lean towards pessimism.

Rebecca Ray: So it’s not like I have, you know, managed to find some kind of sprinkling of magic thinking fairy dust, where I can then focus on all the good things.

Rebecca Ray: It’s just that I now practice, it’s kind of a conscious practice when things are tough. I go, but is there another possibility here?

Rebecca Ray: And if I just stayed on this particular path that feels aligned right now, I wonder what’s possible. So I guess it’s a place of curiosity, rather than automatically assuming that something bad will happen, or I won’t be able to achieve it, or I’m not good enough, you know, because those beliefs don’t necessarily go away.

Rebecca Ray: I certainly have a belief that I’m not good enough most of the time, the differences now. I don’t let it stop me from doing anything.

Rebecca Ray: I still do the things and I still worry about whether or not they’re good enough, but it doesn’t stop me and the more you do, the more brave action you take. Over time, your comfort zone just widens.

Rebecca Ray: So when you first asked me that question about brave and courageous living, what does that look like? I was gonna automatically say, Oh, well, I guess I’ve just done a podcast.

Rebecca Ray: I guess that’s brave, but it’s not brave anymore. Because there’s so much recording that I’ve done over the last couple of years.

Rebecca Ray: There’s so much on camera stuff that I’ve done over the last couple of years, but that’s not really a thing anymore.

Rebecca Ray: It’s doesn’t it doesn’t scare me to put that stuff out into the world because I’ve done it so many times.

Rebecca Ray: But if you had asked me that, say, at the beginning of last year, maybe 18 months ago, I probably would have told you that I want to go and hide in the corner after each episode is released, but it’s not like that for me anymore.

Rebecca Ray: So, yeah, it’s about action. I think it’s about action. But also understanding that action, if it’s outside your comfort zone is very rarely comfortable.

Rebecca Ray: But if it’s in alignment, if it feels like it’s values driven, and it’s based on what’s truly important for the life that you’re trying to create, then it becomes action that fills you up action that supports you living into a certain magic to it, even though it’s scary and feels uncomfortable.

Georgie Collinson: Yeah, it’s totally understanding your inner critics there. It’s always gonna say these things to you, it’s always going to tell you you’re not good enough, it’s going to feel uncomfortable, you know, challenging yourself, but that’s normal.

Georgie Collinson: What your inner critics tell yolu?

Rebecca Ray: Yeah, yeah, yeah, that’s right. I think it’s about not understanding that if you try to get rid of it, it will only get louder.

Rebecca Ray: The more energy you give something in your head, the more energy and control it appears to have over us.

Rebecca Ray: So what I would encourage listeners to do is rather than trying to just think positive, which makes me want to slap myself in the face, like if you, if you see an Instagram quote that says just think positive, please report it, like, it’s just such a roll on by bullying.

Rebecca Ray: Yeah, it pretty pretty much is because it’s absolute rubbish. Like, it’s just not, it’s not possible. And it’s asking too much of humans that are actually wired to be problem focused based on how our DNA has evolved.

Rebecca Ray: And so instead, what I would say, to listeners is to understand that we actually have different selves inside of us. So you have a fearful self inside of you, that self might be younger than you are.

Rebecca Ray: Now, that self might be a bit wounded by previous experiences, and failures and mistakes and areas that have made you feel shame and humiliation and but there’s also a leadership part of your part that shows up as brave and courageous.

Rebecca Ray: And you can access those parts. As long as you have a conscious awareness about you, the courageous part of you is the part that’s aware of all the other cells within you.

Rebecca Ray: And it’s the part that can lead them forward to be able to go, Oh, yes, this is scary. Yes, it’s overwhelming. But I’m here for all of us, I see you.

Rebecca Ray: And I understand that you need to be validated and reminded that you’re important. And you’re kind and you want to make a meaningful difference in the world.

Rebecca Ray: And we’re going to do these things, even though they’re scary. We’re going to move forward in this particular direction.


Georgie Collinson: Yeah, yeah. And even someone who, you know, achieves a lot in their life, just understanding if you want to be like that person, that road that they’ve gone through to get to that success has not necessarily been just a smooth ride.

Georgie Collinson:  There’s been failures along the way, the road to success or achieving whatever you want to achieve.

Georgie Collinson:  Has failure in it. It has to.

Rebecca Ray: Yeah, absolutely.

Georgie Collinson:  Expect the no

Rebecca Ray: Expect, expect failure, but don’t sit it in the failure. And I say that there’s someone who’s set in failure. Like I say, There’s someone who’s a pretty good wallowa when I want to be.

Rebecca Ray: But it’s those failures that have brought me to where I am today, I have literally failed my way here. And the other things that have come about in my life have been a result of those failures.

Rebecca Ray: I honestly believe if I hadn’t have gotten to those places, then the other things wouldn’t have arrived.

Rebecca Ray: And I don’t think I would have seen them in the same way, or appreciated them like I do, you know, the level of gratitude that I carry, is because of the pain I’ve also suffered, you know, those those two things that can venture it, like grief and love when you lose something that you love or someone that you love, the grief that you experience is commensurate to the level of your love.

Rebecca Ray: And my gratitude is commensurate to the level of failure and pain that I’ve experienced. When I didn’t think that I was I would succeed.

Rebecca Ray: But also my definition of success has changed as I age.

Georgie Collinson:  Have we ever really failed?

Rebecca Ray: I think I’m trying to use language that I relate to, and my clients have definitely related to because that’s the language of the inner critic.

Rebecca Ray:  I could definitely have started this conversation by saying those things were never failures because they led to led me to where they are to where I am today.

Rebecca Ray:  But in my head, they were at the time. So I don’t view them like that now, and I’ve certainly reframe them to be way points rather than failures.

Rebecca Ray: But the reason I’m using that word failure is because I think most people, when they hit up against that rejection or that know, or something didn’t work out didn’t as the way they wanted to, after all this hard work that they put in, it really does feel like a failure.

Rebecca Ray: Um, so I guess I’m trying to bring a level of reality, emotional reality to that rather than just slapping a nice quote on it that says, it’s never really a failure. And, you know, every step you take takes you on the path to where you’re destined to go, you know, like I,

Georgie Collinson: Yeah.

Rebecca Ray: I’ve experienced too much pain to kind of throw that at listeners in an authentic way. It just makes me feel inauthentic, because I really wantt o say that  the pain has been enough that there are times when I’ve thought of shutting my entire business down, you know?

Georgie Collinson:  Yeah.

Rebecca Ray: There are times where, where I’ve thought that I was never going to have love. And certainly I never thought I had it, I would have a child. And even when I was pregnant, I never knew my motherhood was gonna be this good.

Rebecca Ray: So pessimistic our way through being all gone, we’re setting ourselves up for something really hard. I just didn’t, I didn’t know that the love between a mother and a child could exist like this either.

Rebecca Ray: So I want listeners to get that. It’s not. It’s not just about chucking some pop psychology, kind of, quote, style words on it to make it okay.

Rebecca Ray:Because sometimes it’s definitely not okay. Yeah, yeah. But it’s about being in the not okayness. long enough, but then also giving yourself permission during that time to entertain possibility, what can come from this?

Rebecca Ray: And I will say that I’ve only ever gotten to the place of possibility after sitting in that not okay, and wallowing for a bit, because that’s my style, you know, and sometimes to get to a place of possibility has meant that I’ve needed therapy, it’s meant that I’ve reached out to people who have supported me and other times, it’s just had to be plain old work. I’ve had to do my own head.

Rebecca Ray:: But it’s, it’s about consistency and continuing to show up for your own self. You know, I, I’m constantly thinking, what does my 80 year old self want?

Rebecca Ray:What? What would make her proud? And I, you know, once upon a time, I thought that was flying. But today, I think it’s how I love my faithful, you know, I think she’d just be really pleased with how I love and I think that’s what her definition of success would be.

Georgie Collinson:  Yeah. And that’s so what you were saying about sitting in what you’re in and really validating that experience, it feels dark, it feels like a dead end, it feels like failure.

Georgie Collinson:  And I that’s where I think this, just think positive gets really in the way as you were saying, because then it almost invalidates our experience, or says like, I’ll just quickly move through that, or shove that feeling down.

Georgie Collinson:  And this is so much about problem is that we don’t feel our feelings. And so I’m similar to you, when I hit a failing point or something where I feel is darkness and dead end.

Georgie Collinson:  I, I guess I sit in it, and I feel all the feelings and I cry and all of that. But then there’s these little glimmers somewhere. Usually, even when I’m in my darkest where I know, it’s just not gonna last forever.

Georgie Collinson:  And that’s at least the only thing I can kind of reassure myself is that looking back at my past experience of that and going, yep, I survived that one, though, I’m probably going to survive this one.

Rebecca Ray:Yeah. And I think for me, sometimes I’m not even able to do that when I’m in it. So I’ve got a support crew. And that’s really important to me as well, but it’s just convenient that my one of my best friends is psychiatrist and the other is a psychologist.

Rebecca Ray: Sorry, um, I only need to flick a text either way to them, um, to be able to be given a little bit of validation or reassurance. It’s really helpful to have friends that are good listeners, but it’s also about knowing when to reach out because you can’t do it for yourself.

Rebecca Ray: And I would say that even as a psychologist, like I’ve done eight years of training at university in this stuff, and I’ve treated people for nearly two decades. I I’m an expert in feeling stuff that’s uncomfortable.

Rebecca Ray:But when it comes to doing it for yourself, you just need to have the tools that work for you and figuring out what those are and what’s going to help you shift through the feeling.

Rebecca Ray:Not around it, not over it not under it but through it can be really helpful to be able to come to another side where all of a sudden possibilities there?

Georgie Collinson: Yeah, yeah. What’s it like when you catch up with your psychologist and psychiatrist friend?

Georgie Collinson: Do you do ever talk about normal things? Or are you just like straight into the feelings and the mind?

Rebecca Ray:No, it’s it’s just a normal friendship. In fact, I would say probably the some of the most inappropriate friendships I have.

Rebecca Ray:Because they both have absolutely wicked senses of humour. And I think that’s what character characterises both of those friendships. One of them I’ve known since she was two, and I was four.

Rebecca Ray:So she’s like my sister. And the other one, we both live apart as well. So one lives in interstate the other lives two hours away. So we don’t often catch up face to face. But it’s more a case of when.

Rebecca Ray:So the other one I’ve known for over 10 years now, longer 15 years, I think. And when people know you that well. And for that long, there is an emotional safety in a relationship like that, that allows you to be all colours of yourself.

Rebecca Ray: And that’s what I can do with both of those, I can both send a message and say I’m running a book on boundaries right now.

Rebecca Ray:I can send a message that voice note sent a voice note the other day saying or that I’ve got this concept on boundaries, does this make sense?

Rebecca Ray: Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, boundaries, these boundaries that and she sent back and she goes, Yeah, make sure that you include this because I think that the psychological boundary sounds like this and blah, blah, blah.

Rebecca Ray: And then the next message will be How are the kids you know, or the next message will be? Oh, my god, did you know that bindi Irwin got married, you know, like, it’s just it’s, it’s a standard friendship, but then it also can go to a level where there have been times where I’ve been depressed and anxious, and I have gone to both of them to go, I’m not okay.

Rebecca Ray: And immediately they’re there straightaway to go, what can we do? What do you need?

Georgie Collinson: Yeah.

Rebecca Ray: And it’s, it’s also, I guess, having an understanding of the work that we do, where both of them have dealt with clients who are unsafe, we have all dealt with that and have all been each other’s cushion, during really difficult experiences just in facing the work that we do, which is sometimes really hard.

Rebecca Ray: So I guess it’s, I guess, we sometimes talk about work, because we’re all interested in just being human, but it’s still just a normal woman to woman friendship, where there is leeway to be your authentic self in whatever way that shows up. And I’ll never, ever take that for granted.

Rebecca Ray:Because I think it’s such a valuable thing. And I also am well aware that not everyone has it?

Georgie Collinson: Yeah, I think that you’re very lucky to have that. And I think that that’s support around you.

Georgie Collinson:  Certainly when you were in practice, and now would have been invaluable. Just having someone to bounce off that really gets the work you’re doing in the headspace have been through similar training experiences.

Rebecca Ray:Yeah.

Georgie Collinson: Okay. I am curious about this in the with the idea of spirituality or some kind of a belief system for you in something that we don’t understand.

Georgie Collinson: What is what does that mean for you? And how does that play out in your life? Do you have much of a spiritual interest?

Rebecca Ray:It depends what you call spiritual. So I was raised outside of religion, I my parents have no religious beliefs whatsoever. And if we’re talking about religious spirituality, I don’t have any affiliation, or belief.

Rebecca Ray:But I certainly believe in something bigger than myself. So I would say that, you know, people who have a faith and a formalised faith in some way might say, well, you still believe in something, therefore, you know, that’s a spiritual kind of way of being.

Rebecca Ray:But for me, I call it the universe. And I just find it helpful to believe that something bigger is happening around me.

Rebecca Ray: And it helps me to believe in the good of humanity, and it helps me to not feel so alone. I just like imagining that there’s a particular plan and that there’s something else to turn to.

Rebecca Ray: And I think for me, that plays out in a personal practice of how I relate to myself and just trusting that when I sit down to create something will happen to assist me.

Rebecca Ray: And some people might call that a particular name, and I just call it the universe. I just trust that when I sit down to write some days, it’s not there.

Rebecca Ray: But some days it really is and I just trust that when I’m meant to write and when the deadline, the paragraphs will come, I just need to show up.

Georgie Collinson: The words will flow through.

Rebecca Ray: Yeah, yeah. Yeah,

Georgie Collinson:  You’ve explained that really beautifully. And I’m very similar. To be honest, I wasn’t raised with a formal religious upbringing at all.

Georgie Collinson: But I found that yet developing, I actually craved it when I was in my early 20s. I was like, I feel this lack of, it’s not enough for me to just go this is all there is, especially when I consider the complexity of this world that we live in?

Georgie Collinson:  And how, how could our human brains ever with we know how limited they can be? How could they ever understand the depths and complexities? So I love putting that big question mark and the unknown.

Georgie Collinson:  And, and saying that? Well, it’s, it is possible that there are other forces or energies that we cannot see or feel, or whatever that might be, that are assisting us or, you know, things happening for a reason, I’m very much I see it very logically to it’s like, well, it’s so much more helpful to believe that things are working out for you, or things are gonna end up working out for you, even if you take some wrong turns.

Georgie Collinson:  And I just, I see, it is a pretty important part of my mental health personally.

Rebecca Ray: I think I use it as part of my creative practice, but also my one of my lifelong lessons is trust. So I’m a pretty mistrusting person. And I don’t say that about other people, I’m not suspicious of other people probably should be more suspicious than what I am.

Rebecca Ray: But I don’t trust that things will work out. And that’s because of having history of trauma. And it’s also because I’m just leaned towards that pessimistic end of the spectrum, that’s just my personality.

Rebecca Ray: And so I have created that relationship between me and something else, whatever we call it, in the areas where I need to trust most and those areas are creating.

Rebecca Ray: So when you sign a book deal, it’s just a bit scary. Like I’m about to write my fourth book, and I don’t even remember how I wrote the first one. And I’m desperately hoping that I remember how to write a book like I just, and and that’s, that’s the part of me that shows up and goes, I don’t think you can really do this, like, Yes, it does your publisher it, know, but you haven’t written a word. And you really need to like does does your publisher know that you don’t know what you’re doing?

Rebecca Ray: And that this is the commentary that will go on in my head. And my practice, to come back to trust is to access that leadership as myself, which says to all the other parts that are scared, you know, I get it, I get that you’re frightened, and you want to do a really good job.

Rebecca Ray: And there is times where you don’t feel like you, you’re up to it. But I believe in you. And I believe that as long as we sit down, it will get done in time. And it will get done from a place of ease and flow, not a place of fighting and melancholy and making the process far harder than it needs to be.

Rebecca Ray: So you know, that whole saying of trust, the process is not one that comes naturally to me. So I create a conscious practice out of it, just because it feels better for me to be in the world with that as part of my philosophy.

Georgie Collinson: Yeah, I’m totally with you. And in your you have a course on overcoming self sabotage.

Georgie Collinson: Would you say part of that inner dialogue of like, you know, in your experience, obviously, there’s the book deal. There’s the “do they  even know? ” that sounds to me, like if you kept going down that path, you didn’t have the skills to navigate what your what your mind is telling you in that moment.

Georgie Collinson: You might end up sabotaging yourself?

Rebecca Ray: Absolutely, if I didn’t have the skills to overcome my own self sabotage, which normally happens at a practical level through procrastination, and at a mental and psychological level through negative self talk, if I didn’t have the skills to overcome those things, I wouldn’t have a wife, I wouldn’t have a child because I wouldn’t have a wife.

Rebecca Ray: And I certainly, actually, even if I still had the wife, I wouldn’t have a child because I would have convinced myself I was going to be a bad model.

Rebecca Ray: I wouldn’t have any kind of online presence because I used to be deathly afraid of social media and didn’t even have a Facebook profile before 2015. And I wouldn’t have written one book, let alone three and working on the fourth.

Rebecca Ray: But none of this that’s occurring in my life right now would exist if I didn’t overcome my own self sabotage.

Georgie Collinson: Why do we self-sabotage?

Rebecca Ray: We do it for comfort.

Rebecca Ray: Human beings don’t like discomfort and all of the things that I’m talking about, we’re about me being able to sit with fear. And we’re about me being able to not just sit with fear.

Rebecca Ray:  But when it came to doing the actions that I needed to take to create these things in my life, that requires showing up over and over again with an element of consistency and an element of willingness, even when it’s uncomfortable. And self sabotage is always about the unconscious is desperate attempts, and usually quite successful attempts to remove us from perceived harm’s way.

Rebecca Ray: And even if that’s just emotional discomfort, right then and there, instead of, you know, writing your business plan, you go and Netflix and chill again.

Rebecca Ray: And seven years later, you’re still talking about that business that you want to, that you want to create that you haven’t actually taken any action on.

Georgie Collinson: Yeah, yep. And sitting in that, that discomfort and pain.

Georgie Collinson: I think a lot of people when we talk about self kindness, because that’s your most recent book, there’s this idea of, oh, we’ll just you know, take the whole day off or, and like, just sit on the couch and binge watch Netflix with a face mask on.

Georgie Collinson:  That’s being being good to yourself, looking after yourself. It can be I think, but I believe and I have a feeling you’re similar to this, that it’s, sometimes it’s letting yourself feel, it’s letting yourself be in that.

Rebecca Ray: Yeah, it’s about taking the action that serves you the most in that moment. Sometimes that’s active rest, where you actually do do things that make yourself feel better that replenish your resources, incredibly important.

Rebecca Ray: And something I don’t think we do anywhere near as well enough as we should in Western society.

Rebecca Ray: But the other, the other, I guess the other arm to that is that you need to be able to make a choice around what actions are going to serve you most right now that are going to take your life in a direction that you want to go.

Rebecca Ray: And if there is no future basis to that, if there is no connection with your future self, then you’ll always just return to this unconscious drive for comfort in the present moment.

Rebecca Ray: Because your unconscious doesn’t care could not care less about your future self and about goals and about what’s important to you to be able to say at the end of your days, you know, your unconscious does not give a shit your unconscious only cares about protecting you from any kind of discomfort here and now.

Rebecca Ray: And so part of it is being able to have the awareness to be able to make a choice in the service of your values, even if that means accepting what’s uncomfortable, to be able to step in the direction of what you want to do ultimately with your life.

Georgie Collinson:  Incredible. I love that. So Rebecca, I’ve got two more questions for you before we wrap up.

Georgie Collinson:  The first one is when you are in a place where you feel some anxiety, that fear start to come over you.

Georgie Collinson:  Is there something you could say to yourself in that moment that tends to help you manage how you feel?

Rebecca Ray: It might sound weird, but I talk to myself as if I’m a child. So

Rebecca Ray: I don’t talk out loud. That’s not my thing. It is some people’s thing. But I don’t talk out I can do this well enough in my head that it just you won’t ever see it happening.

Rebecca Ray: But  my conversation goes something like I see you and I see that you’re scared. And I see that you and I just not receiving the nurturing that you need right now. And I want to say that I’m here with you.

Rebecca Ray: And I’m here to hold your hand and it’s okay. And then if the anxiety doesn’t shift, and I’m not saying shit, I’m saying shift intentionally and not go away.

Rebecca Ray: Because sometimes I’m an anxious, anxiously driven person anxiety is in my DNA, there’s a long family history of anxiety, I’m not getting rid of it, it’s just that I’m very good at managing it.

Rebecca Ray: So if it’s still at a level, though, that is not workable for me to be able to just get shit done, that I’ve got to do on that particular day, then I speak it out loud to one of my safe, safe people.

Rebecca Ray: So I might go to my wife and go, right now I’m just feeling a bit blahh. And sometimes black is the best I can do to describe it.

Rebecca Ray: And she’ll be like, oh, okay, do you want to come and talk about it? Or do you want to sit in the sun? Or what do you need, and just being able to put a label on it, even if it’s blahhh is enough for me to be able to go, Okay, this is the thing that I’m experiencing.

Rebecca Ray: But that’s not me. And I think that’s really important for people to be able to practice is that your anxiety is a state, a state that will pass but it’s not you and it doesn’t have to define you.

Rebecca Ray: And certainly you don’t need to give it the wheel for what you’re going to do on that day. You don’t need to give it the map. You don’t need to give it access to the radio. You just need to understand that it might still be in the car, but you’re driving.

Georgie Collinson: I love it. So, so good. And Rebecca if anyone wants to learn more about you or find you where’s the best place to find you?

Rebecca Ray: Sure. I’m That’s my website. And you can find me on all the socials as:

Rebecca Ray: @Dr.Rebecca Ray, one word, but I’m mainly on Instagram.

Georgie Collinson: And I’ll link all of that in the show notes so people can find you.

Rebecca Ray: Thank you so much.

Georgie Collinson:  Thank you so much. It’s been so great to chat to you.

Rebecca Ray: My pleasure. Thanks for having me, Georgie.

Rebecca Ray: I hope you loved this conversation as much as I did. You can learn more about Georgie and her work through the anxiety reset podcast, or, where she has a free calm in five days email challenge. I’ll catch you for the next episode soon.

Rebecca Ray: Lovely ones. Thank you so much for listening to Hello, Rebecca Ray. If you’ve got something meaningful for this episode, the most meaningful thing you can do is to leave a review wherever you listen to your podcast.

Rebecca Ray: Because it’s these reviews that help this podcast stay here. Make sure to subscribe and share this episode. I’d love to see your shares. So be sure to tag Hello, Rebecca Ray. I’ll catch you next time