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Show Notes:

Beck: Welcome to Hello Rebecca Ray, our collective home for courage, growth, and human to human connection. I’m your host, Dr. Rebecca Ray, human, clinical psychologist, author, and educator. I know only too well how fear comparison and self-doubt can stifle your potential. This podcast is all about brave and meaningful living, and how you can make your authentic contribution to the world today and every day.

Beck: Lovely ones Welcome to this episode of Hello, Rebecca Ray, I have one of my favourite voices on burnout with me, Sophie Scott. And I’m so excited to dive into this episode, because for those of you that have followed me for a while, you’ll know that my entire career trajectory was turned upside down, or if not completely roadblocked, by my own experience of burnout. And so it’s a treat for me today to talk to Sophie, because there’s something about being able to have a conversation with someone who’s been there, too.

Beck: So let me introduce you to Sophie, so that you know the force of nature that we’ve got with us today, having written two critically acclaimed books and received numerous awards, including the Australian Museum, Eureka prize for medical journalism, Sophie is a highly respected and sought after health presenter. She’s the National Medical reporter for the ABC with her stories appearing on ABC News 730, ABC Radio and online, Sophie writes and speaks about the science of positive psychology with 1000s of readers regularly responding to her blog. Thank you so much for your time today, Sophie.

Sophie: Aw look. It’s a pleasure, Rebecca, thank you for having me.

Beck: I’m just so excited to have this conversation because we connected via Instagram, which is how so many of my, my favourite connections have actually happened is people sliding into my DMS and me sliding into other people’s DMS. And it was such a treat to actually look at your posts. So one of the things that I’m passionate about is the dissemination of psychological knowledge and wisdom online.

Beck: From a place of what shall we say scientific evidence?

Sophie: Yeah, amazing, because that’s, that was really my goal. When I started my Instagram, which is where I met you was to change it into a habit as a resource for people who were dealing with either burnout or overwhelm and look at the science and the evidence about what works to identify burnout or the symptoms, but also then how to recover and then prevent it happening again in the future. And I approach everything with that sort of scientific lens, and an evidence base, so that so that people can really get a sense of whatever tips or techniques I might be referencing. And I often put the scientific references in the post as well.

Sophie: So that way, if people are interested, they can go and read the whole paper, if they’re, if they’re into the nerdy, nitty-gritty detail. But I think it really makes a difference, because and we can talk about this, when we talk about the things that helped me get over burnout when I looked at the science of what makes a difference, it’s overwhelming the things that are going to help you feel calmer, that are going to activate certain parts of the brain that help you deal with managing your emotions with planning with empathy.

Sophie: And these are practices that we can bring into our lives every single day. And when I looked at all that evidence, I was like, well, this is what I need to be doing. And even if I don’t feel motivated to do it, I need to be doing it because science tells me that it makes a difference. And I think that’s what really got me over the line and gets me over the line every day.

Sophie: I think if you often wait for motivation for something, to think I’m going to wait until I’m motivated to feel like I’m going to start meditating, or I’m going to wait for that motivation to start being you know, moving your body. Sometimes it may never come here for a lot of people that may never come. And so the science and the evidence of the benefits of these practices is what really made a difference for me and what helps me recommit to those practices every day.

Sophie: I think they really are practices. It’s not just something you can do once and then you’ll feel better. But it’s important to sort of every day’s a new day and a fresh start to feel better. And that’s what I try to do and in some days are better than others. But none of us is perfect. Which is good to acknowledge. But when you do have one of those days, you can go ‘Okay, I’ll get back on track tomorrow with the things I know that make a difference to how I feel’. Which are things like the things that have worked for me which are things like meditation, mindful movement.

Sophie: You know, we can talk about when I was in that burnout state, the idea of doing more and you know, doing a lot of intense exercises or anything that was going to be more stressful on my nervous system. Would have been even worse for me, so it’s about small steps that make a significant difference to how you feel. And when you are in the throes of burnout. You know, there are a couple of things that people can look for. It’s, it’s almost like a slow burn, I don’t know how it was for you, I listened to your podcast episode about burnout. But for me, it was almost like, I didn’t really realise how bad I felt until it got to a point where I realised I had to do something.

Beck: What was happening in your life in the lead up to the point where you actually realised, I think I might be burnt out here?

Sophie: So I guess, like, I’ve always been busy, I’m a TV journalist, I write books, and speak on health. And I’m very, very passionate about what I do. And it’s often people who are in that those sort of professions where you really are invested and love what you do, and you want to give it 100% of your time and effort and energy. But you know, it can come at a cost, you know, that having to put so much energy into something, you often depend on caffeine to get you going. And then you might wind down with a glass of wine at the end of the night, and keep going and going and going and what happens to your body.

Sophie: And what happened to me is just the stress hormones and the adrenaline and the cortisol is is like constantly, on and on. And the body never learns to switch off and reset back to its normal homeostasis sort of state. And that’s what happened to me. And I got to a point where I was actually hosting a black tie dinner for about 500 people up in Queensland, actually, for Queensland Health Workers. And I stood up at the podium and I all of a sudden thought I’m gonna topple over and end up in in someone’s lap. Because I felt so dizzy, and I just had all these symptoms of, you know, I just felt like I was gonna collapse.

Beck:  Were you having a panic attack? Do you think at the time?

Sophie: It wasn’t so much a panic attack, it was really that my whole nervous system was just had become completely dysfunctional. So autonomic nervous system, you know, which covers breathing and your blood pressure and all these sort of silent functions that go on in the background, mine had just stopped working properly, so that there was nothing really that, you know, I had medical tests to find out in case there was anything else.

Sophie: But they basically said it was just being so in that sort of heightened stress state for so long that my body was just saying, you can’t keep doing this anymore. And it shows up the body, you know, we might think we’re okay, but the body doesn’t lie in tells you and you need to listen to what it’s telling you in terms of what impacts your actions in your life is having on it. And so for me, that was a wake-up call that I really needed to reset and to think about doing things differently.

Beck: So I just want to nut this out because my experience was that I did too much for too long. So mine was exactly the same, the same as yours in terms of a slow burn. I ignored and ignored and ignored. But if I look back, I would say that it was a combination of the high-pressure type of role, as well as taking on too much. So I was just working too many hours in the day. And the same disintegration of my nervous system to the point where on Sunday nights I would want to cry. And Sunday night blues became Friday afternoon blues.

Sophie: Exactly, that’s a perfect symptom to look out for. Because what can happen with burnout and this is really part of the diagnostic criteria for burnout is really feeling disengaged and losing that joy for a job or a career or profession that you’ve personally loved. And you know, the other thing is, you know, for me it was to do with work. But burnout can also happen in lots of other ways. You can have caregiver burnout, and you can have parental burnout. And it’s really again, doing too much being overwhelmed. And losing that sense of joy that you get from those activities that you really do love it deep down you’ve loved you know, you love doing it, whether it’s the job that you’re doing or looking after kids or caring for someone.

Beck: But it can just get overwhelming and often the caregiving professions such as medicine and nursing and social work and are and teachers are often at, they’re at high risk of burnout because you are so invested emotionally in the work that you’re doing and you give it your all and that’s often what makes you good at what you do. May can also come at a cost.

Beck: Yeah. So once you kind of hit it, and you acknowledge it because I think I think being burnt out and acknowledging it as two different processes. You know, I didn’t want to be burnt out. So I spent a lot of time ignoring oversight. Exactly. I would have loved it to have been something else because I wanted to retire it 70 from clinical practice, and I ended up retiring 35 years early, which was not in my life plan. But once you finally got to the point where you acknowledged it for yourself what happened then?

Sophie: So I think I needed to, I needed to physically rebuild myself before I could emotionally sort of think about how can I work differently and because when you’re at that stage, you feel physically So, unwell and not functioning properly. So I needed to rebuild myself. And that’s when I really looked at the science of what makes you feel better, and how you can get your brain functioning properly, your nervous system functioning better. And so it was all those things and but it had to be very small actions that and what I looked for was the smallest actions that could make the biggest difference. And for me, it was things like, you know, I was so tired and so fatigued that in the mornings, all I could do with some very gentle Tai Chi in the mornings, like literally, like, five or seven minutes or eight minutes of Tai Chi.

Beck: And did you during this period, did you take time off work?

Sophie: So I did take a little bit of time off work, but I needed to find things that I could do every day, to incorporate into my daily life to sort of rebuild things. So I did have a little bit of time off. But I knew that I knew that I was going back to the same environment and the same intense, busy life, which I love. But I wanted to be in a better state of mind and nervous system to be able to deal with that, you know that that life I was going back to so I knew I knew that I had to deal with the things on a very physical level, because you know, our physical and mental health are so intertwined. And so I knew those actions, were going to make the biggest difference.

Sophie: So the Tai Chi in the mornings, you know, meditation, like I mean, I have I’ve written books about the benefits of meditation yet it was really only when I went through this experience of burnout that I actually realised like, Okay, this is something tangible that I know makes a difference to the brain. I know it works. You know, even though it’s not something that I’m drawn to like some people, but I know I have to do it, and I have to stick with it. And now I do it all the time. And I do find it makes a massive difference to how you feel.

Sophie: So I do a meditation. First thing in the morning when I wake up. I like using apps and things because I like guided meditations. So I think having that morning routine sets you up for the day really well just thinking about the first thing you do is think about a very short five-minute meditation, that’s all it has to be. And then think about doing a very short sort of mindful movement again, for about 510 minutes before you do anything else, and, then, you know, think about the connection is also very important. And, you know, making sure you’re talking to people that you really care about and that he loved you and we want to support you. Because often when you’re going through this, you can feel very isolated, like you’re the only one who really knows what it’s like.

Sophie: And it’s only since writing about my experience and putting it out there on my social media, that so many people, so many people, I’ve just been amazed how many people have said, I feel I felt exactly the same, or I’m going through it right now at the moment. And it’s good to know that there are practices I can put into my own life, to try to feel better. And, you know, I think giving people that sense of hope as well as important because it doesn’t mean you know, for some people, it might mean you do need to, you know, walk away from a job that you have previously loved and find another way to be of service and valued people. But for others it can be you can rebuild yourself to a point where you can deal with what’s going on around you. But with a different lens.

Sophie: I guess some of the psychological factors are important for things. For example, thinking about, you know, being a perfectionist more, you know, am I setting boundaries? And I am I good enough at saying no? Because, you know, often we think if we say no, it makes us a bad person or you know, it’s wrong to say no to things or we won’t be asked again, if we say No, they won’t ask us to do this event again.

Sophie: But I think focusing on where your time and energy is going is really important. And you know, you, as you will know with your book about boundaries, setting those boundaries, is just so crucial to preserving our time and our energy, which is, you know, these days more than ever were pulled in a million directions. You know, if you think about work and kids and you know, sort of having a social life and a family and wanting to be you know, have a community and but you do need to find time to put yourself first and so I think that’s what burnout teaches you is that without looking after yourself first you can’t be you can’t give to anyone else.

Beck: Yeah, absolutely. Do you think you were burnt out before you recognise that Sophie and then how long would you consider yourself having been in the recovery phase not recovered? But in the recovery?

Sophie: I think that’s a good point to say in recovery because I think it’s a very active state to be in. I wrote about burnout actually, before the pandemic. So it was, really last year, when I was recovering from it, that I really had to focus on putting all these practices into action every single day, when I was working ridiculous hours, and you know, we turned our house into a home studio, we’re doing live process from the bedroom, you know, to media around the world.

Sophie: So that was a really good test to see are these things going to make a difference. And, and I did get through it pretty well, but it was a very good test to see, you know, is this gonna make a difference to how I feel, and to also show me the importance of sticking with it. And that’s the thing for people, you know, we all have a lot of knowledge, we all will know, what we should be doing. And we know, we know what diet is good.

Sophie: We know we should be, you know, moving our bodies and, but often, life gets in the way of those things. And particularly, I think, for women and working women and women with children, we can put our needs to the back of the list. And what I found and what I would sort of urge other people to do is to think about, it’s actually you being a good role model for other people around you, if you do care for yourself and show that you value your own time and energy. And that’s a good message to give to the people that you care about. And if you want to be the best version of yourself, for those people that you love, you need to be happy and healthy and full of energy and able to love and care for them. And you can’t do that if you’re tired and burnt out and feeling overwhelmed.

Sophie: So that was the reframing in my mind that I had to come to terms with Yeah, and it’s something that I think you need to just constantly remind yourself of, because it is very easy to fall into the habits of into old patterns and old habits. You know, it’s something you’ve got to almost commit every day to do it again.

Beck: Yeah, so like the recovery is ongoing because it’s a lifestyle change of sorts.

Sophie: Yeah, it’s not like something you just do for a few weeks, and then you’re like, I’m fine. Now I’ll go out and live the way I was living before. Yeah, you do need to commit to work and you feel better than that’s the thing, you do feel better doing these things, you feel better within yourself, you feel calmer, you you have more to give to people you can you feel more connected to people and then you can be the best version of yourself for the people that you really care about. And, you know, I’m lucky I’ve got a great family. And I’ve got four beautiful children and I want to be there for them and be the best version of myself.

Sophie: And and the reason I wanted to share my story is that I want other people to feel that they have the same ability to do that as well, that they can take the time for themselves to practice the self-care, which is not about necessarily bubble baths and manicures or whatever. But it’s actually about you know, what makes you feel good? And what fills you with joy? And where do you get your sense of flow and your sense of purpose, and making sure you’re incorporating those things in your life and that they’re not left to the bottom of the barrel when you’ve got nothing left to give. Basically, that’s been a big lesson for me. And I wanted people to be able to hear my experience and hopefully not get to that point that you and I’ve got to have been burnt out but going Oh, well. I recognise myself and what she’s saying. And I’m going to start doing these things now. And you know, putting those boundaries in place. And so I don’t get to where you and I ended up?

Beck: Yeah. And do you feel like these techniques, Sophie, accumulative in terms of their impact on reigniting your resilience, because one of the things that happened for me when I got very burnt out is I couldn’t normally let things bounce off? But when I’ve got incredibly burnt out the slightest little thing, and that wouldn’t be the thing that you would think, you know, I could have a client tell me that they felt suicidal and I’d be fine. But I could have an email from someone I didn’t expect and it would send me over the edge, you know, like it I’d be in tears. So how did you rebuild your resilience? Was it a kind of key of building blocks of all these little techniques?

Sophie: I think it was the building blocks of all the different techniques, but then also focusing on what are the things that really mattered to you in terms of what you value and make sure you’re prioritising those things in your life. And but it is a function of being in that that state of burnout or overwhelm where some little thing can really trigger you that you might not expect and that’s because your nervous system is not working properly and you are you’re hyper-vigilant and you’re sort of on you know, you’re feeling stressed and tense all the time and, and the practices and the exercises like meditation and mindful movement, what they do is they calm your nervous system down, they reset your nervous system.

Sophie: They, you know, we know the benefits of exercise on the brain and help your brain to work better. And all the things that I did were very gentle, you know, and one thing I’m when I listened to your episode about burnout, you talked about to beach, go gently in your recovery, and not sort of overwhelming yourself with trying to do everything at once and do it all. And because that will just make you feel worse.

Sophie: So it was important for me to find ways where I was not putting more pressure on myself to think, oh, great now, but to get up at six o’clock in the morning and go for a run, that’s just going to add more pressure to my already busy life. But know what I tried to think about. And what I urge others to do is to think about, what small things can you incorporate into your day that are going to make a difference to how you feel, and finding something that’s it might be different for other people, you know, someone it might be, it might be spending some time in the garden for someone who loves gardening and loves getting their hands dirty, and they can just block out the rest of the world and go into that special place.

Sophie: So it’s finding whatever works for you, for some people that might be just taking their dog for a walk and, or, you know, listening to a podcast, and that’s their time where they can just be, you know, uplifted, and you know, everything else can be put to one side. So I was finding what works for you, I think there’s no one set of rules. But I think it’s worth persevering and finding what is going to make you feel better. Because that’s the thing, often people don’t feel that they’re worth investing in themselves for those practices.

Beck: And I do think burnout, burnout actually complicates that, I think, at least in my experience, and in my clinical experience, as well seeing, it’s so funny that you should mention medical professionals and helping professionals because in my experience, if my three-year-old kind of grew up and said, I want to be a nurse, a teacher, or a police officer, I’d say, Oh, I love you for caring like that.

Beck: But they were the professions. So I saw the most burnout. In the end, I’m one of the things that I always thought was that as you adapt your kind of burnout strategies to be able to recover there is this sense of fragile worthiness or a sense of worthlessness that can sometimes come with it. So, particularly for people who attached their sense of self-worth to their job.

Beck: When you can’t do it in the same way anymore, it can really shake your groundedness and your sense of identity in the world. And so I love that you kind of say that we need to adapt to what works for us because it’s not going to be if you set a one size fits all kind of strategy or almost prescription plan for recovery, then that can compound someone’s sense of worthlessness because they can’t do the things necessary on that plan.

Sophie: Exactly. And I think it because it does affect people who are, you know, like, you and I are very emotionally invested in the work that you do as well like you really care about wanting to help people. And yeah, when you’re working as a clinical psychologist, or in my work, particularly, I was doing a lot of investigations where I was spending a lot of time with patients, a lot of time with patients who’ve been very injured by their, by the health system. So they often did that they were suffering a lot of trauma. And so you become very close to those people because you’re, you’re being trusted to tell their stories.

Sophie: So it’s hard, it’s hard not to take on, you know, the trauma that they’ve suffered, particularly when they you know, they’re telling you over and over what they’ve been through. But at the end of the day, I still want to want to be able to do my job and do it well. But you’ve got to be able to preserve your own emotional well being and physical well being. And that’s where those daily practices come in. And also set some boundaries about what you will and won’t do. And, and also recognising that your own you’re worth, doesn’t just come from a job title. And you can be of service and value to people in lots of ways, and make connections and make a difference to people in lots of ways. And that’s one of the great things about how I use Instagram now and use social media in the same way you do that you can actually, you know, by putting out informational posts about that psychology and about recovering from burnout, you can actually help people that you might never meet that you might even have any contact with.

Sophie: But you might put something out there on a day with someone who really needs to hear or really needs to find a way through a difficult day. And this is You can do something that just helps them go, Okay, you know what, I might just give that a go and see, and it might make me feel better. And, or it might make them feel less isolated. Like, they’re not the only ones going through what they’re going through. And so that’s just, uh, you know, lots of people, you know, derived social media, and there are certainly some downsides to it. But for me, particularly I found on Instagram and the connections that I’ve made there, but it’s been actually very beneficial for getting out information to people who really need it. And that’s very rewarding as well.

Beck: As you’re entered. I’m gonna say the workforce, but I don’t mean the workforce, because you didn’t leave it completely. As you re-entered your job. Can you talk me through the different interior decorating that you’ve might have done in your head? Because I’m kind of I love that analogy. Yeah, if you kind of has it, have the furniture all set up one way, and then you get burnt out, but you’ve got to go back into the same job, or you choose to go back into the same job, there might be many people who actually don’t have a choice.

Beck: And they that’s what they’re returning to, because it pays well, or because it’s the job that’s available at the time. So not everyone is privileged enough to walk away from their job and just go and find another one. I think that’s important to acknowledge too many people are in burnt out a position of burnout, but they can’t just stop working. So I’m wondering, what interior decorating did you do differently at an emotional and mental level to allow you to go back into that same work.

Sophie: So I think what really helped with that was to think about focusing on the things that I could control and identifying the things that I couldn’t control. And so I love that stoic philosophy of looking and focusing on what you can and can’t control because that then gives you agency and an ability to just focus on those things that are under your control. So your own words, your own actions, your own thoughts, where you put your time and energy and also recognising what you can’t control, you can’t control other people’s behaviour, you can’t control other people’s reactions, or actions or responses. And so that really helped me because I thought if there are things that I’m not happy with that involve other people, I can’t, I can speak up and I can make my views heard.

Sophie: But ultimately, I’m only responsible and I can only influence my own behaviour and my own reactions to what’s going on. Yeah, and, and that was very important to me when I recognise that because otherwise, you can get quiet, you can feel like you’ve been banging your head against a brick wall, sometimes you want things to be different. But it’s it might be someone else who is the cause of those problems. And that’s not you’re not just because you want things to be different, it’s not going to change, and you saralee so you can that’s so feeling like, well, what are the things that that I can control, I can control, you know, how I spend my day, what I put my focus and energy on my thoughts, my words, you know, one of the more positive things. And that’s one reason again, that I you know.

Sophie: I’ve always wanted to be Rebecca, I even wanted to be a journalist or a psychologist when I was at school. Now, I was wanna do both weekly, and so that, you know, journalism by its very nature can be a very negative profession you’re dealing with, generally, you know, traumatic events, or, you know, like the pandemic, you’re dealing with illness. And so it’s not necessarily an uplifting way to spend your time and energy.

Sophie: So that’s why I love the psychology side of things, and the positive, particularly the positive psychology side of things, where you’re helping people get the tools and information and knowledge that they can then use to feel better within themselves and to improve their own emotional well being. So for me, that’s a bit of an antidote to the sort of the more negative side of things which can be you know, talking about the pandemic and, and how people are coping with that.

Sophie: So I think having that yin and yang have really helped me to make sure that I’m not just focused on one thing, which is, tends to be more negative, but to really bring in those factors that are more positive to me, and also prioritising things like spending time with people that you really care about, you know, and, and saying, you know, when was the last time I actually even just picked up the phone and call Why don’t you know, your friends you don’t, it’s difficult, you know, sometimes you can’t see people in person.

Sophie: But you can pick up the phone and have that, that connection and you know, human beings, we’re social creatures where we’re, we’re bred to be connected with other people. And having that sense of connection really makes you feel alive. And it helps to counteract other things in your life if it’s not going well. But if you have that sense of connection, it makes you feel so much better. So I think that was an important reframing as well, like, what are the positive things I can focus on that’s going to uplift me and make me and help me feel better mic making sure prioritise those things as well.

Beck: I love that perspective so much. And I love having your voice here as someone who’s recovered, practices recovery daily, and return to the same work because I didn’t. And I often talk about how burnout completely changed the trajectory of my career. Now, I grieved for that at the time, but I’m now happy than I’ve ever been, you know, I’m doing work that doesn’t feel like work. So I’m not saying that it’s a bad thing. Even though at the time, I was like, What the hell am I going to do with my life? Like, if I can’t do this anymore, then what am I gonna do?

Sophie: So a lot of ways it gave you an opportunity gave you opportunities, and that you would probably have never had before to have like the books and to do exactly the mentoring and the things that you do.

Beck: Yeah, it did. It opened up a path where I had to look at things differently, I had to be able to kind of come to a place where I was thinking, How do I use psychology without seeing clients on a daily basis? And you said something earlier, which really resonated with me, which was something along the lines of how do I still provide value or an impact on other people’s lives? And that’s exactly what I kind of woke up one day and thought, how am I going to do this because I don’t want to, I’d never wanted to walk away from that. I still wanted to reach people with the hard-earned knowledge that I had, I was like, I don’t want to let this stuff go to waste.

Sophie: That people are desperate for it, you know? Particularly, you know, in the last, you know, 12 months or so people are desperate, for help and support, and they’re not necessarily able to get it and so, yeah, or afford. So being able to give people that that knowledge and those resources are so valuable, and instead of it being sort of one to one, and now what you’re doing is really what one too many, you know, yeah. Many more people. That’s amazing.

Beck: Yeah, I think it’s an incredibly valuable corner that I turned thanks to burnout, even though I wouldn’t recommend people get burned out before they actually turn that corner.

Beck: If if there’s someone listening to us today, and they’re thinking, Oh, my goodness, I’m only just at the beginning of this burnout journey. And I, I’m in that, like my nervous system is disintegrating, what would be one message that you would want them to hear and walk away with?

Sophie: I think the one thing I would want them to walk away with is, is to listen to that message that they are on the cusp of something serious happening, what action can they take right now to turn that around? And whether it’s, it’s pulling back on the commitments that you’ve got, whether it’s just carving out some time for yourself every single day, and often this can be very counterintuitive, you know, we are you know, we’re giving people you know that I think they call it the human givens syndrome you know, you give to others you might be what you know, what they call a people pleaser, which a lot of us is we want other people to be happy.

Sophie: But if you feeling like you’re at that verge where things are, you know, getting serious and you feel like you might be getting burnt out, that’s the time to stop and go, okay, right. Now, what can I control? What can I change? How can I put a bit of a circuit breaker in here so that I don’t end up down that track because that’s not where you want to end up with? Because it is it can be a long road back, particularly if you’re dealing with a lot of physical symptoms that need to be dealt with over a long period.

Sophie: So I would just see it as a big, you know, warning sign an aha moment to say, Okay, this is a wake-up call, and I’m going to invest, you know, that you’re worthy of investing that time and energy in yourself, to be the best version of yourself, for the people that you love and the people that you really care about. And even though it might seem it’s not selfish, it’s just about self-preservation. And it’s worth it, it’s definitely worth it and finds what works for you. As I said, there’s no one size fits all. But you know, there’s, there are lots of good resources that you and I both put out on social media and that other people put out, they can really show you that the evidence behind these practices that makes a difference to how you your nervous system functions and your brain functions and you will feel better, you will feel better if you do it even just for a small amount every single day.

Beck: I love that I want this I want the last thing that you hear to be you will feel better words. Sophie, can you please let listeners know where they can find more of you.

Sophie: Sure, look, my website is sophiescott.com.au. But I’m on Instagram quite a lot. Now my handle for that is @sophiescott2.

Beck: Please go and check out her Instagram in particular. It is phenomenal. Thank you so much for coming in today. Sophie, I so appreciate your time.

Sophie: Thanks, Rebecca.

Beck: Lovely ones. Thank you so much for listening to Hello, Rebecca Ray. If you’ve got something meaningful from this episode, and the most meaningful thing you can do is jump on over to wherever you listen to your podcast episodes and leave a review. Because it’s those reviews that helped this podcast stay.

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