Show Notes:

Hi, lovely ones. Welcome to episode number 36. In this episode, I wanted to share with you a really special conversation I had back in 2019 with one of my favourite people that I’ve ever met across the internet. Kelsey Murphy. Kelsey is the host of the Whiskey & Work Podcast.

She’s a business and life coach. She’s a Marie Forleo B school mentor and mama to two very spirited kiddos. And she and I just clicked we had one of these phenomenal conversations that actually never expected to have she reached out to me to interview me on her podcast.

And it turned out to be a conversation that was profound. That’s the only word that I can give it, she created a space where I just felt available to be vulnerable about the realities of being a startup business, and how that’s really hard. And so I wanted to share this conversation with you in case you’re in a space where this is what you need to hear.

I hope you love it as much as I did back in 2019. Things are a little different for me these days in 2021 when I’m releasing this episode, but I know so many of you out there are possibly in exactly the same place that I was in. So let’s get into it. I hope you love it.

Kelsey: Today’s guest is so freaking good and special. I cannot even tell you how much I loved this conversation, you’re gonna get a kick out of it because you’re gonna see that it’s the first time.

Kelsey: Dr. Rebecca Ray, also known as back and I have ever connected live. And we pretty much fall in love with each other. We feel like we’re sharing a brain and we get super, super vulnerable. I mean, Beck is talking about some things that she has never, ever shared before it.

Kelsey: There’s laughter and almost tears on here because we are cracking up at how open we are being about building our businesses and the fears that we went through and the questions that we asked ourselves as we started to build those businesses and switch careers, you guys, it is so good.

Kelsey: Now, Rebecca Ray, or Dr. Rebecca Ray. She is a clinical psychologist. She has done countless hours with incredible humans all over the world to help them grow and move forward and gently love and embrace themselves.

Kelsey: But I came to know Dr. Rebecca Ray from her Instagram account, I started following her years ago. I will never ever ever forget, seen some of her quotes online and pop up in my Instagram feed.

Kelsey: Just thinking oh my gosh, who is this person she is speaking to my heart. And I will tell you what I mean like just if you go to the homepage of her website, it says this it says hi see you they’re trying and showing up and pushing through.

Kelsey: Choosing forward over stuck holding your own hand when it gets hard learning to love yourself first. You’re my kind of people, the kind that chooses to be brave. I’m here to help you seek, find heal and rise on your way.

Kelsey: I mean, you just want to know this person, right this writing this. Well you get to today you’re going to get to know all different sides of her. I cannot wait for you to hear this conversation.

Kelsey: And of course, besides just being a clinical psychologist Rebecca is also an author and she’s written three beautiful books that you can find on her website one which still is only available in Australia, New Zealand, which I cannot wait for it to come out in the states should be out any week now.

Kelsey: But I am so glad she decided to write books because she has power with words. And you can hear her experience her journey through herself her journey through her clients. She is just one of the most incredible humans. So before I talk this episode, Hold on too much.

Kelsey: I want you to decide for yourself if you think she’s amazing as I do. And if you do, go check her out on Instagram, go follow her go be part of her community in her world.

Kelsey: She has brought so much to my life. And she has been such an impact simply by living and breathing and putting her stuff out in the world. It’s really been amazing for me. And so to get to have this in-depth, connective conversation with her was so special, and I’m so stoked to share it with you guys.

Kelsey: So sit back and relax and enjoy the latest addition to the whiskey and work podcast with the incredible Dr. Rebecca Ray.

Kelsey: Well, hello, there Beck.

Rebecca: Hi, Kelsey.

Kelsey: How are you?

Rebecca: I’m so well, thank you so much for having me.

Kelsey: I’m beyond thrilled to have you on. I’m so excited. I’ve been following your work for ever. And I can’t even tell you the amount of quotes that you have written that I’m like, she in my brain, like, in my mind, is, I feel the exact same way.

Kelsey: So I’m so pumped to get you for this solid hour. And just to hear how your brain works and how you got to where you did. So thanks for making the time for us.

Rebecca: Oh, absolutely. My pleasure.

Kelsey: Okay, so for people who are just being introduced to you, will you kick this off by introducing yourself and letting them know a little bit more about who you are and what you do?

Rebecca: Sure. So my name is Rebecca Ray. I’m a clinical psychologist and have been for the best part of 20 years, which makes me feel learned and aged. I’m also an author, and I guess they’re my titles that we rock up in the world with.

Rebecca: But first and foremost, I’m just a human, just sitting here walking alongside everyone else trying to do my best with it all. And I’m based in Australia, and the opportunity to connect with everyone from around the world, given the technology that we have is just so incredibly wonderful. So I’m so grateful to be here.

Kelsey: I’m so happy to have you here. And you have a couple, you know books and things that I want people to know about. And I want people to hear about. But before we get into all of the epic things that you’ve done, especially in the last couple years, I’m wondering if you will take us from you know, start from the beginning and let us know.

Kelsey: How did you get started? Did you always know that you wanted to be a clinical psychologist? And how did you jump from that to becoming an author and writing these beautiful books? Tell us a little bit about that.

Rebecca: Sure. It’s not a quick story, I guess, because the path has never been linear. So if we start with the writing, because I’ve come full circle, I developed a love of words when I was young. I remember writing poetry when I was 10.

Rebecca: I was an intense little kid. I had big feelings. And I still do. I think I hoped I would grow out of having big feelings, but I never have. And so I processed my feelings by writing poetry.

Rebecca: But then when I entered High School, you know, we’re shaped in Western culture to get a real job. And I remember being at a career information I had at school when I was 15, which is like grade 10 here in Australia.

Rebecca: And I, we were being nudged to choose a career direction based on the subjects that we needed for year 11 and 12. And I decided that it would be amazing to learn about why humans do what they do.

Rebecca: That’s how I decided I was going to be a psychologist. And that’s what I did. I finished year 12. And I went straight to uni. And I started studying psychology. And then somewhere along the line.

Rebecca: In that first year of uni, I started to learn it to learn to fly of all things. And yeah, it’s a bit random bit left field. And I fell in love with flying and did a whole heap of Flying Training spent a whole heap of my poor parents money, on dumb on flying and being able to learn the skill of something that was challenging to me.

Rebecca: And it got to the point where I had to really acknowledge that I had signed myself up for something huge with flying. And because I’m not one to do anything by halves, I decided that I wanted to fly for a major airline in Australia.

Rebecca: But in doing that, I ended up with raging anxiety. And I really had to acknowledge that flying brought to me a whole series of things that violated my life non negotiables.

Rebecca: So, as a person, I’m pretty boring, Kelsey. I’m the type of person that likes routine. I like to do the same thing each day. I’m very word based person. So if you give me a set of words asked me to put them in a certain order or write an essay, I’m all over it.

Rebecca: But if you ask me to do a maths equation, I’m likely to start crying. And so when I, when I learned to fly, obviously, we’re doing a skill that’s very visual, spatial, and very mathematically and physics minded, incredibly challenging.

Rebecca: For someone with a brain like me, that doesn’t work like that. But because I hate to fail, I went way above and beyond to do as much training as I possibly could. But every time I drove to the airport, I would feel like I was going to vomit.

Rebecca: And it was all I could do emotionally to just get through the flight, because every time you fly, the situation is different, you, the weather is different.

Rebecca: How many aircraft are flying at the airport is different, what air traffic control will ask you to do is different, there is no routine. And that very much challenged me. And I got to the point where I really had to acknowledge that this wasn’t a case of just overcoming a fear.

Rebecca: I wasn’t frightened or flying. But what it asked me to do violated my very personality. And that created an anxiety that was unworkable. So I had to get to a point where I sat down with my parents have acknowledged that it wasn’t working, and that I wanted to stop flying.

Rebecca: And for me that was surrounded in a whole heap of shame, and embarrassment and failure, because I had said that I had a goal. And now here, I was not being able to meet it.

Rebecca: So I guess that was the first times I really faced deep failure. In my in my mind, I mean, I don’t look back and think I failed. Now, I think I did an amazing thing to learn to fly. But for me, I felt like I was letting my parents down.

Rebecca: And they took it really well, luckily, and I went back to study psychology and finished my studies and realised pretty quickly upon learning to practice as a psychologist that studying psychology does not teach you what humans do what they do.

Rebecca: I mean, it teaches you some of it. But we there’s so much that we still don’t know about why humans do what they do. And then I went into private practice. And what happened is over time, I, my inability at the time, as a young high achieving psychologist, my inability to say no, really started to get the better of me.

Rebecca: And I ended up seeing, on average 40 people a week in my private practice. And yes, it’s ridiculous. And anyone training in psychology right now, please take heed, because I would never recommend practising like that to my supervisees now, and I did it because I couldn’t say no doctors were referring their patients to me, and I didn’t want to let them down. And I was concerned about my business staying afloat.

Rebecca: And so I always wanted to make sure that I was providing my referrers with a service that they could rely on that could fit their patients in. But what that meant was I in a nutshell, I just did too much practice.

Rebecca: And I ended up burning myself out and having nothing left over at the end of the day for my life. So all all I could do was what I brought to the table with my work, but there was nothing left over for anything outside of that.

Rebecca: And I was exhausted. And so that was the next time I failed deeply. And I really got to a point where I thought, oh my goodness, the thing that I love to do most is slipping away from me. And I don’t feel like I can do it anymore.

Rebecca: And I closed my practice again and mongst a huge experience of shame and embarrassment and failure. And I had no idea what I was going to do next. And that’s not a nice place for a control freak like me.

Rebecca: And I spent some time sitting in that uncertainty and in that unknown and really had to process how do I take my life’s meaning, which is to contribute to other people in a way that positively impacts their lives?

Rebecca: How do I take that work and all my study and turn that into something that I’m capable of doing without damaging my spirit? And that’s when I entered the online world. And I started putting my work out digitally, and I wrote a program that failed miserably. This story’s just about failure after failure, isn’t it?

Kelsey: I’m loving it so much. You have no idea. I’m loving this. 

Rebecca: I tried to sell a program online knowing nothing about online selling, I still don’t know much about it actually. And it failed miserably from a financial perspective.

Rebecca: But what it did do Is it really meant that I consolidated my voice and my message and what I wanted to put out into the world and that was under a different brand. I was even hiding behind a brand I wasn’t even working on In my own name, and that felt so incredibly fit inauthentic.

Rebecca: And so what I eventually did was found the courage to start writing under my own name and found an audience that are so incredibly amazing. And they love the same things that I do, which is to talk about living bravely and meaningfully and expansively while going gently on ourselves and cultivating this inherent belief of worthiness.

Rebecca: That’s where I am today.

Kelsey: I love it so much. And I mean, one of my favourite pieces of your work, and one of the quotes that I have, like posted up is, “she was never quite ready, but she was brave, and the universe listens to brave“.

Kelsey: And that to me was like, Oh, my gosh, this is my person. Like, because being brave, for me is so hard. It’s so hard to be brave. And I’m a big believer in just being brave in these small moments, you know, and allowing those to grow and progressively get bigger and progressively be braver and these bigger moments, but that feeling of letting go of the perfection.


Kelsey: And then as I do that new pieces come up that I’m like, I’m not really ready to go there yet, like, hold on a second. And then it’s like a whole new phase. So it’s just like, a constant journey.

Kelsey: And every time you kind of you go through new evolution, like I feel a richness in my life. And I feel richness in the people that I connect with in my life and it, it dramatically changes just everything about from my business, to my personal life to my relationship with my husband and my kiddo.

Kelsey: But I noticed that, it’s not an end point, you know, it’s a constant evolution, it’s a it’s a constant journey.

Rebecca: You know, it’s so beautifully said, Kelsey, I don’t think I could say it better. And I love that you’ve spoken to the fact that we’re being brave in certain areas of our life, while other areas we might be resisting, because that’s my experience, too.

Rebecca: I really think that, you know, courage shows up where we need it. But at the same time, we are so complex, as human beings, and we face so many decisions, so many choices, so many feelings and thoughts on a day to day basis, that navigating all of that at once is impossible. And it’s about coming back to this really gentle accepting way of approaching ourselves that while we’re being courageous, we can also be developing in other areas.

Kelsey: Absolutely, absolutely. And I noticed myself at least I noticed that I, I can tell when I go through seasons and my business and my life and, and I am a I’m a relatively new mom, I have a three year old and and bless her heart man, she really she really challenges me.

Kelsey: And and I have a wonderful husband who I adore and as my best friend and we go through these seasons where things are so spot on and the love we have for ourselves and each other is at such a high and then environmentally or internally.

Kelsey: Things happen right things happen in our lives and we react to them and all of a sudden sometimes we revert to bad habits or new triggers pop up or things that we’ve never explored pop up.

Kelsey: And I just realised that, that oh my gosh, like, based off the different seasons of my life, like, I will always have moments where I have to take a step back and love up on that kind of six year old Kelsey and say.

Kelsey: It’s okay, you’re doing the best you can now keep going, you know, like, keep on going and, and that for me and accepting that and loving that, and embracing that as part of my life and feeling proud for the moments that I that I can embrace that, you know, what, I don’t know the answers, or I don’t know what that next step looks like, has been such a game changer for me. And in my in my genuine day to day happiness, you know?

Rebecca: Absolutely. Isn’t there a freedom that comes with acceptance when you can? And by acceptance, I mean, the psychological form of acceptance, not acceptance, according to the dictionary.

Rebecca: So acceptance, according to the dictionary is that we are totally cool with something, we’re totally okay with it. Whereas the psychological form of acceptance that we talk about is that we accept our whole experience, even the uncomfortable parts, and even the parts that we don’t want.

Rebecca:  Acceptance doesn’t mean that you have to, like want or approve of something that you’re experiencing, it just means that you allow it to be as it is without resisting it. And when you can come at your own humanity with that sense of self acceptance, what seems to happen is this freedom opens up where we let go of the struggle against ourselves. And when we can break out of that internal warfare, well, it’s us against us. All of a sudden, life becomes a little gentler, in my experience, you know, the world is were softer on the world, and the world is softer on us

Rebecca: And when we can break out of that internal warfare, well, it’s us against us. All of a sudden, life becomes a little gentler, in my experience, you know, the world is were softer on the world, and the world is softer on us. Mm hmm.

Kelsey: Oh, my gosh, yes. Like, I couldn’t agree more. And I feel like I need to play that like last minute loop in my head. Like, every, every single day, because it, it’s hard to remind yourself why you’re doing this, I just, I just did a podcast with a friend of mine a couple of weeks ago, we were talking about this journey, and how there is no end point and how it is about acceptance. And I was like, I feel like this isn’t a very sexy conversation.

Kelsey: Like, I’m so sorry, I feel like, you know, like this idea of having an end goal and like achieving something and like checking the box. And getting to a point where you can move on to something else, I feel like, that feels sexy, right?

Kelsey: Like that feels like you’re accomplished and, and you’re you’re finishing things. And we were talking about the the internal feeling of liberation and freedom. And this fullness, and its richness of life and, and deep connection that you feel with yourself and deep connection that you feel with other people, when you start to really embrace these things.

Kelsey: And it’s, it’s a, I think, and it’s an experience, I would venture to say most people have had at least once in their life, like, at least once in their life, there’s probably a time that you can go back and reflect on like that one conversation I had with that person.

Kelsey: We just, it felt so good. And it felt so deep. And it was like we were these long lost friends. Or that one time I made that mistake. And I loved myself and I moved on. Or that one time my mom made a mistake.

Kelsey: And I loved her and I moved on and that experience. But going back and reflecting and imagining the expansiveness of that experience, and imagining that showing up in your life more often, like, for us that was like, that feels like it like that feels like the ultimate goal of like the life that we want to create with those deep connections.

Kelsey: But, but it is hard because it doesn’t feel as sexy as telling someone like, here’s what acceptance is. And once you get there, you get to check the box and you’re done.

Rebecca: Exactly. And you know, culturally, I don’t think we’re encouraged to move towards practices that are lifelong, were instead were strongly reinforced, rewarded and encouraged to pursue goals that are ticked off because they’re easier to see. And it looks like we’re winning.

Rebecca: But life is not really a game to be won. It’s, I don’t know about you, but at the end of my days, if I know about it, we don’t always know, you know, when the time is coming. But at the end of my days, I want to be able to sit there kind of in that wrinkled, old stage, if I’m lucky enough to get that old and say that I loved as deeply as I am capable of loving.

Rebecca: And then I lived bravely and meaningfully. And none of those things are goals. So none of those things means that I’ve ticked off writing book x, you know What it means is that I was I failed so many times to learn to love better.

Rebecca: And to learn to forgive myself and to learn to continue to move through the world in a way that is courageous for me. And those things can’t be there’s no photograph of that.

Rebecca: And I think that’s, that’s what makes it unsexy is that I can’t show, you know me living courageously, it’s probably me crying in the corner processing some kind of feeling, you know, it’s not, it’s not me going out and climbing Mount Everest.

Rebecca: And I’m not saying that climbing Mount Everest is not courageous, because I could never do it. I think it’s amazing. But I’m saying even the people that go and climb Mount Everest, for them, it would be the process from that very first decision, to the boring training, the pain, you know, all of the things that come as part of the process.

Rebecca: That’s this is what life is life is accepting the process and how we, I guess, support ourselves and each other through that?

Kelsey: Oh, my gosh, I completely agree. And I thought it was so interesting what you said, like, we are based out of this idea of achievement.

Kelsey: And what’s interesting is a lot of our audience and a lot of the people that I connect with, and the people that are listening right now, like, they probably know, achievement, you know, they’ve achieved and they’ve felt it, and they don’t feel that fulfilment, or that deep connection that they’re looking for.

Kelsey: And, at least so many of my clients, and so many of the people that I work with, are high achievers, you know, they’re like, VPS, places like they, they’ve done it, they’ve checked the box, and they’re still raising their hands saying, okay, so I did all the things that they said to do, you know, like, I have this great house, I have this great husband.

Kelsey:  I have great kids, like, but I’m spending 40 5060 hours a week doing something that now I feel like is sucking my soul. And, and it’s interesting, because it’s kind of one dimensional to say it’s second my soul.

Kelsey: I love the way that you actually described some of the things about when, when you were learning how to fly and those kinds of things like things that maybe at first brought you joy.

Kelsey: And then as you continue to develop and go deeper and recognise what that meant for your life, all of a sudden, you’re so far in, and you realise that this is not lining up with the way that you can or want to live your life. And at that moment, being able to be courageous enough to, to have the really tough conversation and feel like the failure and say.

Kelsey: What am I going to do next. And that I feel like is where a lot of a lot of my clients are at and they’re they’re either at that place, or they’re trying to figure out what that next step is, they’re like, I quit my job.

Kelsey: Now, I have no clue what to do next, and I need to find the thing. And I’m like, oh, man, the thing is a journey, you know, like, the thing is going to be the thing that we test out that we learn from that we then evolve from that then we grow from and then there’s another thing and there’s another thing, but it’s like, you got to have people and connection and a really good foundation for the process, because there’s going to be a lot of highs and lows along the way.

Kelsey: So I love that you, you did that twice, like you did that with line. And then you did that with your private practice. And then you found this third kind of stream for you, that allowed you to do the things that you wanted to do.

Kelsey: You know, study human psychology and human behaviour and interact with people, and probably for you, I would assume has been very gratifying because you have touched so many lives with your books and the things that you write and your Instagram and all the things that are putting you out into the digital world.

Kelsey: You’re connecting deeply and you’re having those conversations, but it’s now in a different way to it’s, ou’ve tested some things out to find that

Rebecca: I’ve tested it and I’ve aged, so through. I don’t say that in a negative way. I actually said it in a really good way. Because when I made that decision about flying I was I started flying when I was 18.

Rebecca: I was just a baby and I finished flying when I was 21 or 22. And so there was a lot of flying. And that’s kind of compacted into those years. And I look back now and think oh, he would just so little, you know, like you were just a little girl that was trying to prove something to herself, but mainly to everyone else.

Rebecca: And you knew nothing about yourself and you were so embryonic in the stages of learning Who am I? And what makes me tick and what are the things that I need in life. In order to be able to live well, and now that I’m 40, so I’ve just turned 40 this year, and I had a baby last year, which is incredibly life changing in and of itself.

Rebecca: And I think, as we age, we know so much more just through the failures and through coming up against things that damage us that we then make decisions from a different place.

Rebecca: So now, yes, my work is gratifying. Absolutely. But it’s been shaped by my pain. So the way I practice psychology now is because I was hurt by the way that I was practising psychology 10 years ago, I don’t know that I could have learned that any other way.

Rebecca: Because I think our boundaries are often shown to us by crossing them. And I crossed so many of my own boundaries, that it got to a point. I’m a slow learner, too.

Rebecca: So I was probably burnt out for about five years before I sat down and said, you know, you idiot, you should do something about this, because you’re the problem. So often the problem in my own life, not always good at acknowledging that.

Rebecca: When I finally acknowledged it, it was about coming to a place where, if I’m the problem, what do I need to adjust in order to be able to come to a place of working in a way that’s meaningful, and I didn’t know whether the online world would have me, because I’m just a human too.

Rebecca: And so I have all these doubts as well about whether or not I’m good enough and whether or not there is a space from for my voice and whether or not I have anything to say from a perspective that will resonate with other people.

Rebecca: And I sit here as someone attempting an online business, and it’s a daily attempt, I just show up the best I can. But I’m still wondering how I put food on the table.

Rebecca: And I’m still wondering, what is going to happen with next year’s content. And there are so many questions hanging over my head. The difference is that the difference from 10 years ago to now is that I am so fed at a soul level, and not in a way that’s harming me.

Rebecca: So I work from home, I get to spend as much time with my baby and my wife as possible, which is such a gift. And I I set my own hours. I’m the one that says yes, I’ll do this interview.

Rebecca: Yes, I’ll you know, write this next book. Yes, I will create Instagram quotes right now. And that for me just works so well with my independent kind of autonomous bent, that those things are invaluable.

Rebecca: I think there’s some sometimes the way we work is priceless, even when there are other challenges from a business perspective. And that’s what I’ve discovered, I’ve just discovered that there were certain things that I can add to the qualities of my work life that feed my spirit rather than drainage.

Kelsey: I love that and I can 1,000,000% resonate with that I my my background is in advertising. And it was something that I really loved for for the beginning. For the for the beginning of it it fed a part of me and three main corporate advertising.

Kelsey: Yeah, yeah. So I worked up in San Francisco, and I was working for a wonderful, wonderful agency. And I started off at the bottom of the chain as like an assistant and and then I worked there for about seven, eight years and climbed up the chain to be one of the youngest directors there.

Kelsey: And I was working on brands like Nintendo and Elizabeth Arden and, and all of the Yeah, these beautiful, really exciting things. I was flying all over the world.

Kelsey: I was doing shoots with like bondo and Britney Spears. And it was very, very cool to talk about at the bars. I will tell you that.

Kelsey: I had very cool things to talk about when it came over Christmas vacation. I was like yes, this is awesome. And and the company that I worked for was lovely in a relatively in the advertising world.

Kelsey: Like they I would take four weeks off a year and I would just go travel to Italy with like my sister and fly my mom out there and, and I got to do these really, really cool things. Of course, it was definitely a work hard play hard environment.

Kelsey: They were creating beautiful work that were very story based and what they created and there was a lot of things that lined up my boss and the people that I worked with were wonderful humans like I’m still in contact with them now the salt of the earth people.

Kelsey: So it was very confusing for me when I was so I felt like I hated my job. It was very confused. Using an AI, and I didn’t understand not only what I hated so much about it, but what could I possibly find? That would be better?

Kelsey: You know, like that question for me, it was so hard it was like, on paper, this is what a such an epic opportunity. And I don’t think you’re gonna find something better than this Kelsey, like, relatively when you talk to your friends and I had just moved in with my husband, and he was like, you have an amazing job, you have an amazing boss, like you have so much time off, and I could work from home.

Kelsey: And in theory, it was a great job. And I was absolutely painfully drained. And it was not not only was I drained, but it wasn’t feeding my soul at all. And that was starting to bleed into the rest of my life. Right?

Kelsey: Like, that’s when I really became an issue is when it started to just affect my confidence in myself and knowing who I was, and loving who I was, and loving all the quirks and the weird things about me because I’m a big feeler to like, I now really can talk about and love up and embrace this hugely, highly emotional side of me and talk about how, how much I hated that how much I hated being sensitive, because I was always in big meetings with people.

Kelsey: And I was negotiating, and I and I, and I’m a sensitive soul, you know, so I had to like, shut off a part of me when it came to certain things. And, and now that I’ve kind of found this new world that I get to live and breathe in and explore in it.

Kelsey: It doesn’t matter really how much I’m working. Although I now have crafted a life where I only work a few days a week, and I have crafted life because of this beautiful online world that has also accepted me.

Kelsey: And that I get to, you know, make the kind of money that I was making before, if not more, and still have a lifestyle that was so important to me that that I didn’t recognise, I didn’t recognise how important that lifestyle was like, I like to be able to sleep in some days, like I like to be able to take my kid to farmers market in the middle of the day, like, I like to not work any Friday.

Kelsey: So we can go to the zoo. Like, I like to have those moments. And I just didn’t think that I could have that and still make the kind of money I needed to or wanted to and be financially independent, as well as have a life in a business or a career that I was really proud of, you know that that wasn’t something that I was like, I just kind of do a little part time thing that kind of makes chunk change.

Kelsey: And But hey, you love your job, like you have a passion your job you’re passionate about. And I had that idea in my brain. And I really had to go through a process of being challenging that and being like, why do you think that? Like? What evidence do you have to back that up?

Kelsey: What friends do you have that you’re talking to, like, go out there and explore. And so when my husband and I we both quit our jobs, we went travelled for like six or eight months. And I went and I sat down with different life coaches and marriage and family therapists and psychologists all over the world, like in Bulgaria and Turkey, and Australia and New Zealand and London, and all these different places that I went.

Kelsey:  I would reach out to these strangers on the internet didn’t be like, Um, hi. So wait, can I get a coffee? Because I saw online you have this business? And I’m curious about it. You know, there’s definitely crickets from a lot of people. But it was a moment that was the bravest thing that I could possibly do.

Kelsey: You know, and I was putting myself out there. And I sat down and I had so many beautiful, wonderful conversations. And I realised that there are actually other people out there in the world, talking about their big feelings as you put it and being honest about who they are, and showing up in that kind of a way.

Kelsey: And then providing and serving and impacting other people in the way that they want to and can and making a great living off of it and a great lifestyle off of it. And so I was I was determined to figure that out, you know, and that’s what brought me into the online world as well.

Kelsey: You know, I just started dabbling and failing, dabbling, failing and dabbling until I started to hit a stride you know, and started until I started to find this, this beautiful intersection of things that I was talking about and things that were helpful and impactful for other people. And then I could get my momentum in that, you know, but it did take a lot of a lot of recognising why I was so unhappy in the beginning.

Kelsey: And, and that part of that was just because I was just shutting pieces of myself down. I was ignoring them and and shoving them to the side. And that became such the norm for me that it was like yeah, that’s what everyone does.

Kelsey: Of course, it’s work. You just shut parts of yourself down and it’s like, oh, no, no, no, like, I didn’t realise how toxic that was for me personally, because every time I shut that down, it’s like I was saying that part is important, important, that part isn’t worthy, like that part should not have a voice.

Kelsey: It’s not, you know, it’s not a seat at the table where it’s like no, actually, that could very well be more important than all these other things that you’re doing. And you need your whole self to come to the table, at least I recognise when my whole self isn’t coming to the table, like it just doesn’t feel real for me, you know?

Rebecca: I feel like we could talk forever about this, because I had such a similar experience in sitting with clients and people who I was so connected to that they actually changed my own psychological landscape.

Rebecca: You know, I’ve worked with some amazing human beings who are just doing unspeakable things in the world, because, you know, their police or their military personnel and personnel, and all they want to do is protect other people.

Rebecca: And I remember sitting there doing the most phenomenal work based on a deep connection with the client, and thinking, why do I hate this? Why not? Why do I hate him, because I adored the clients I was working with.

Rebecca: But I remember having exactly the same thought process and feeling so incredibly ungrateful for what was sitting in my lap, I had a flourishing practice, I was afforded years of education, which, you know, there are 130 million girls in the world right now that don’t have education.

Rebecca: And I had years of it at my disposal in the row was working, utilising my skills with people that gave me the privilege of hearing their stories, and helping me to shift them to help them move forward. It was such a privilege.

Rebecca: And yet there, I was so burnt out that all I could feel was numb. And I felt so incredibly loathing of myself for feeling like that, that it took me I think that’s why it took me so long to acknowledge that I could no longer work in that way. Because I felt guilty.

Rebecca: I felt guilty for showing up in that role that other people would kill for other psychotic, you know, training psychologists would have killed for my practice. And I didn’t want to anymore. And then that’s when the shift happened for me as well.

Rebecca: And I had to acknowledge that not only were my feelings valid, but they were trying to tell me very important information. And if I didn’t listen to that information, then my own mental health was going to be dramatically affected. And that’s also how I arrived in the digital world only if I’m going to be completely honest.

Rebecca: And I don’t really know any other way to be now that I’m here, authentically online, and not hiding any more. I don’t have the income that I had in private practice, I don’t enjoy the same luxuries financially that I used to be able to have, because I’m still finding my stride in that online business sense.

Rebecca: And I don’t, I’m saying this in a really uncomfortable, vulnerable way, it makes me vulnerable to talk, it makes me feel vulnerable to talk about that. But I don’t hear enough people talking about it.

Rebecca: So I feel like I should, it’s really hard to work out a way to find and create a living online. And I want to say that out loud, I don’t have it worked out. I do a lot of work for free.

Rebecca: And I create and write in a way that resonates for me and for other people. And I receive the most beautiful messages via email and dm on a daily basis about people who have felt and seen and heard my work and have been affected by it.

Rebecca: And that’s what keeps me going. I absolutely adore that. But I haven’t yet translated that into a lifestyle, so to speak. And I just want to be honest about that.

Kelsey: I love that. And I think you’re absolutely right. I don’t think enough people are honest about that. And I don’t know if it’s because they’re trying to fake it to make it or if they just don’t want to share that part of them, you know, because they’re in the middle of the journey because it the reality I think of an online business is it does take a while it takes a while to find your stride.

Kelsey: You know, it takes a while to figure out what you’re doing. It’s just it’s it’s just like starting something from scratch. Like you have to test something out. And then you have to redo it and then you have to test something out.

Kelsey: You have to redo it, you have to test something out. And and I think that that uptick, like I would say for my first two, how many years have you been doing your online business?

Rebecca: I’ve been online longer than I’ve been selling so I started my Instagram in 2016 I think and I started selling what Really? Only formally probably this year?

Kelsey: Oh my gosh, I love it. So you’re at the very beginning of your journey, like,

Rebecca: Yeah, I mean, I did sell that program and I talked about that failed, that was in 2015. But you’re gonna crack out laughing at this, because this is how I did it.

Rebecca: I was like, oh, create the program and then just sell it like, but the people will buy it once the programme is created. No, no, Rebecca, you kind of need an audience, right.

Rebecca: So I didn’t do any of that I just went and created a program and expected people to sell it, I knew nothing about SEO, nothing about creating an audience stuffing, I didn’t even have an audience. And so that completely failed. And then I was a bit gun shy by that, because I spent a lot of money on it.

Rebecca: And, you know, I had to recover. And then when I moved into writing, under my own name, it took me a while to find my voice, I think and two, because most of the time I’m writing to myself.

Rebecca: So it’s really interesting that you say that you feel like I’m in your brain, because then I could just say to you, well, you’re in my brain, because most of the time I’m writing things that I need to.

Rebecca: So we’re probably the same person. But um, what’s happening is that, as I, you know, I work a lot and people don’t see what goes on behind a pretty Instagram page or a pretty book.

Rebecca: And I work probably more hours than I ever worked in private practice. And there is so much that goes on to just get it up and running and keep it up and running, let alone find a way to make that profitable.

Rebecca: And I just want to be really honest about that. Because I don’t think I’ve ever heard someone talk about that in a podcast before. Maybe I’m not listening to the right podcast, but I just want to be honest and say.

Rebecca: You know this, you don’t just have an online presence, and then think that the person behind that brand is making a million dollars, it’s, it’s, you know, or even a comfortable living. I really think it’s, it’s much more complex than that.

Rebecca: And there are a whole series of skills that need to be developed to make that happen. And don’t often hear people talking about that.

Kelsey: I love that you in the same exact podcast and same conversation, you’ve, you’ve been able to bring up the fact that you have this lifestyle and this soul fulfilling work that you’re doing.

Kelsey: And you get to spend time with the people that you love and your new baby. And you get to work in a way that really brings you to life. And at the same time that you’re also you’re in the throes of it especially if you just started selling in the last year and even just being starting out in the last couple years.

Rebecca: Which is just so I love that you’re sharing this Beck because you have such a beautiful feed and the work that you do and the words that you use. They just seem so well thought out.

Kelsey: So polished, so classic, like like, these are relics that have been inside your soul for so long that you’re finally sharing with the world. Like, your stuff is so good. Like, I don’t think anyone would guess that you are kind of as new as you are like, I didn’t even know that like I thought for sure you’d been doing.

Rebecca: I’ve never talked about this before. Because no one’s ever really asked, I guess we might we more talk about, you know, just the topics of courage and self work worth. But I just want to be honest, because it’s not.

Rebecca: What you see online doesn’t necessarily reflect my experience. Yes, I have a lifestyle in terms of the practicalities that work so amazingly, for me, but sometimes there I’m having a conversation with myself about how workable.

Rebecca: This is in the long term because I have to put food on the table. And I’m still not convinced that my personal brand will necessarily do that. Because it’s not right now.

Rebecca: And I don’t know, this makes me so vulnerable to say this out loud, because I know this is going to a huge audience. And I haven’t spoken about this public publicly before. But I really think it’s probably important to acknowledge, you know, like, this is the reality.

Kelsey: Oh, absolutely. And you know, what I noticed people do is they talk about it in retrospect, because I don’t think I would have even had this conversation in my first like, year or two, especially of selling.

Kelsey: Yeah, you know, but now I can go back and be like, Oh, yeah, my first I think at least my first three years. I was doing side businesses as well as like my own Yeah, right.

Kelsey: Right, like, at least the first three years and I was freelancing, and I was bringing in big chunks of money doing other things so that it would sustain or it would allow me to have the same kind of lifestyle that I wanted.

Kelsey: And now I am at a place where that’s no longer the case but but I’ve been doing this for about five years, you know, five, six years. And so it’s not that it takes forever.

Kelsey: But there is an uptick, it does take it is like you are starting a brand new career, you know, you are not going to jump in, it’s just probably like your private practice is probably not like you jumped in day one.

Kelsey: And started and had this, you know, had 40 clients right away, you know, like your momentum might have built quicker, you know, based off whatever situation you were in. But I feel like for the fact that you’ve found something that is so soul fulfilling.

Kelsey: That it provides you the lifestyle, and could potentially lead up to the financial payoff that you want. You’re just in the beginning of it, like your journeys in the beginning.

Kelsey: So I love that you’re being so candid and open, because this is what the beginning feels like the beginning is hard, like the beginning is questioning yourself and saying, What am I doing? like, is this going to be sustainable?

Kelsey: And it’s a lot of trial and error and hearing the transitions that you’ve gone to, to the successes that you’ve gone to. And honestly seeing the work that you’re putting out there, I have zero doubt in my mind like that you’re going to be highly successful, I feel like we’re capturing you at a moment.

Kelsey: That is so cool. Because I feel like in a few years from now, you’re going to be like speaking on stages everywhere, or you know, like collaborating with the Bernie Browns of the world.

Kelsey: And I’m going to be like, remember, when back was on talking to us about how she was in the beginning. Like, it’s gonna be so fun to hear that because I have no doubt and I’m also gonna, like, have like a million conversations after this with you about how we can make your business more successful.

Rebecca: You can send me the invoice later for all this counselling. I just want to acknowledge that, to even open up this conversation is so lovely of you. Because it’s it’s one of those things where I think people will maybe this is my perception, it’s always our perception, Isn’t that how we come at the world.

Rebecca: But I do definitely get a sense that when you hear someone interviewed on a podcast, what the interviewer is looking for, is their success story to inspire their listeners, oftentimes, or some kind of, you know, lesson transformed into growth.

Rebecca: And it’s true. I mean, I can talk to you about all sorts of amazing psychological concepts that can transform and shift people into doing things that make a difference in their lives. But the reality is that I’m in the trenches.

Rebecca: And this is what it looks like to be, I guess, creating work this I mean, I’ve written three books, and I’m still having this conversation with you, as an author with three books under our belt.

Rebecca: It’s one of those things where I think if I heard someone saying this, if I was listening to a podcast episode, I would feel are finally, finally someone said it out loud.

Rebecca: But I haven’t said it out loud. Number one, because I’ve never been asked and number two, because I don’t feel like it’s the stories that people necessarily want to hear. You know, it’s hard.

Kelsey: Yeah, absolutely. And, and I mean, I think that, when people don’t want to hear it, it’s because they don’t want to. They don’t want to hear a sad story, right?

Kelsey: Like, they don’t want to hear something. And the reality is, is, it’s almost going back to the beginning of our conversation, it’s realising that it is a process that you are in the middle of it.

Kelsey: And there is beauty and connecting with people when they’re in the middle of their process. And there’s transparency and vulnerability and transparency has always been one of my highest values.

Kelsey: It’s what’s what, it’s what makes me feel truly connected to other humans. And to have you be this transparent is one such a gift. And two, I think that this is what I thrive off of is this transparency.

Kelsey: And I know that before we even did this podcast, you know, I sent you that email that was like, Hey, tell me how you started and tell me your stories. Like, I want to know the highs and lows, the bootstrapping failures, like, those are the stories that I want us to tell on this podcast.

Kelsey:  You know, like, I want to hear, I want everybody to hear that. There are bootstrapping, like I had Marie Forleo on. And I was she was like, What do you want to talk about? And I was like.

Kelsey: I want to talk about that first really crappy workshop that you put on in the basement of someone’s house where like only two people showed up that were your friends and like your mom and dad.

Kelsey: Like, that’s what I want you to tell us about because people see you and they see this beautiful book and this beautiful business that you have, but they don’t hear enough of those stories and it’s easier to tell them in retrospect, it’s either easier to tell them After you’ve hit success, you know.

Kelsey: I don’t even think I was very open about this. But I love that you are telling this because not only does is make me so excited to be catching you in this moment, because I have.

Kelsey: I mean, anyone that goes and looks at your work knows that it’s going to, it’s going to blow up any second.

Kelsey: But I also feel like it’s very true to who you are, and what your brand is and what you believe in and putting this out in the world and having more conversations like this is so important.

Rebecca: And one of the things that you just reminded me of just then, which was so good is why do we continue when it gets hard? And the reason I’m still here, even though I asked myself the question every week, how do I how do I find that, you know, tipping point.

Rebecca: But the reason I’m still here doing it is because of connectedness, you know, I have been able to reach people who send me DMS or join my courses, or have sent me a message about my book, and told me that it touched them in a way that I could never imagine.

Rebecca: And like I said, most of the time, I’m writing to myself. So when someone writes to me and says, oh, my goodness, this is exactly what I needed to read right now, I immediately know that they’re my people, because we’re the same.

Rebecca: And it’s that it’s this kind of work, where I feel spiritually engaged in what I’m doing on a day to day basis. And if it meets all my, you know, non negotiables in life, to be able to live with what’s meaningful on a day to day basis as much as I possibly can.

Rebecca: It’s those things that make me feel like this is, you know, almost too good to be true. From a job perspective. You know, I’m like, how did I get here? How could I be so lucky?

Rebecca: But at the same time, when I look at it, practically, I’m like, well, maybe this is too good to be true. From a, you know, meet all the needs perspective, and you can’t necessarily expect this to reward you financially, the way a normal job would.

Rebecca: And even though even though I don’t buy into that belief, so I’m still here, I’m still trying, and I’m still learning about a different way of doing business, it’s still something that plays in the back of my mind.

Rebecca: And for anyone that is experiencing something similar, I guess the way that I come at this from is I don’t trust my mind. So I don’t believe that we can, minds are very trustworthy at all.

Rebecca: And I am listening to my intuition. And I’m still here, I’m still saying yes to podcast, podcast interviews, and I’m still writing book proposals for my next book, and all that kind of stuff.

Rebecca: And it’s because you keep me here, the people that I get to meet as a result of this blow my mind, and I just have so much gratitude for that and feel so in alignment, in terms of my authentic self doing this work, like I’ve never been before.

Rebecca: And that’s what’s kept me here. This feels so right, that I just trust that there must be some point where it becomes a little easier from the perspective of supporting my family.

Kelsey: Yeah, absolutely. And I, oh, god, I love that you said, you have to be cognizant of your your mind. Like when, when your mind, we’ve crafted an internal dialogue, right?

Kelsey: Like that’s based out of fears, and based out of these, these ideas of who we are, and these ideas of the world, you know, and then all of a sudden, that internal dialogue starts to become fact to us.

Kelsey: And I’ve at least recognised that, like my internal dialogue was was very incorrect for a long time, not only about the world, but about who I was, and about men and about, you know, different types of things that I had kind of almost established as fact in my brain and just kind of moved on.

Kelsey: And that idea that you’re talking about, that maybe I can do this soul fulfilling work, but maybe it’s not going to pay off financially, I think is probably just part of the process and what you’re going through, right and the more you go through this, the next sale that you make, you know, the next course that you make that does better, like the next piece that you go through, will give you more evidence and create a new internal dialogue and a new piece of evidence in your brain to say.

Kelsey:  Hmm, it is possible you know, the next person that you meet like, you and I are for sure going to be friends and have like a million conversations. So I will be someone that can tell you right.

Rebecca: plan to go go here today. I thought it was just gonna be a standard interview. just gotten really deep.

Kelsey: I know we’re gonna like get off and like talk about like life and business and All the things and, you know, but but when we have that conversation like that will be like, cuz I’m super transparent and super open about like the behind the scenes and how I run my businesses and what the numbers look like.

Kelsey: And you will have another piece of evidence there to show you that what you want is probably possible, you know, and then, you know, I’ll probably connect you with my friends who are also doing it, who you will meet more people.

Kelsey: And all of a sudden, that I think that thought process or that internal dialogue that’s been created is going to start to shift I think the more that you surround yourself with those people, the more stories you hear, and and it’s not just those people, it has to be those people that are your people, right, who live a similar lifestyle that you do who have similar non negotiables, who want to talk about similar topics.

Kelsey: And when you see those people doing it, I think that’s when you start to see the proof and see the evidence, at least for me, I’m a big believer, I always had to see the proof. And that was one of the reasons I left my job is because I didn’t see any women, leading a life that I wanted to lead, making the kind of money that I wanted to make.

Kelsey: And I knew that if I didn’t see the proof, I wouldn’t believe it was possible. And I would just be so devastatingly working towards a promotion that I wasn’t excited about for my entire career, you know, and so that’s when I kind of went on that journey, I needed to meet more people that were building these lives that were financially.

Kelsey: You know, that were financially successful and doing their soul fulfilling work. And honestly, that’s what led me to Marie. At first, I started following her. And now I have met her and I’m very connected to her. And I love her.

Kelsey: And I’ve seen the way that she’s built this. And so she’s such as a pillar of evidence for me, because I’ve got to see behind the scenes, like I know what kind of human he is, you know, like, an person that she is connected with, you know, that she that has in her circle that has similar values.

Kelsey: Like, then all of a sudden, like that belief continues to build and build and build for me, but, but I’m very intellectual as well. So I have like, like, a lot of times I should be operating from my heart, and I’m operating from my brain, you know, and I need to check myself like, but I have to have the proof, I have to have the proof.

Kelsey: Otherwise, that belief in that thought system, I think I think that sticks in my head. So So I, I introduce you to some proof when we get off this call. Oh my gosh, okay, I cannot keep you for much longer.

Kelsey: But I do want to make sure that everybody here is about your book, your most recent book that you wrote, and I love that we had a conversation about your business, I’m gonna have to bring you back on so that you can just like dive into your book, and like your thought process and all of these beautiful things because honestly, I that is what made me like fall in love with you.

Kelsey: Now that we’ve had this conversation, I’m like, Oh, so much more to talk about. But I would love, love, love for you to just tell us a little bit about that book. And then a little bit about how people can go follow you and support you and and get to know more about you and all that you’re bringing to the world.

Rebecca: Sure. So my latest book is called the art of self kindness. And it was written for those people who are like, all of us, I think and struggle with that sense of worthiness. And it’s a it’s a book that I think you can pick up at any point and open to any page and see a message that is written for you or you can read it cover to cover.

Rebecca: it’s a small gift book that’s been so beautifully illustrated. And I wrote it because I wanted people to have a place to go to to feel validated and seen and understood from a position of inherent worthiness, even though we often struggle to believe in that worthiness.

Rebecca: So it’s called the art of self kindness and unfortunately, it’s only available in Australia or New Zealand right now. But we are working on getting it available internationally and that should happen in the next month or so I hope and then people can find me at Rebecca and I’m on all the socials as at Dr. Rebecca Ray all one word. But most of the time you’ll find me on Instagram because that’s where all the action happens. And that’s where all my people come to.

Kelsey: That’s where I found you and so happy I did because you have just been such a voice speaking to me and to my heart and I just have to tell you, I think that what you’re doing is incredible.

Kelsey: And please do not stop please make it big. I want to help you make a big like it is so beautiful what you’re doing. It’s so special and I cannot thank you enough for coming on and, and taking some time to have this conversation with us.

Kelsey: You’re just amazing. So thank you.

Well thank you might me cry with all those compliments. It’s been so Though profound is the right word. I did not expect to have this conversation today.

So thank you for opening the space for me to be so real. I hoped you loved that chat as much as I loved being in that conversation with Kelsey Murphy. You can find Kelsey Murphy at

And on her website, you’ll find everything there is to know about her magnificence. Thank you so much for listening lovely ones.

And if you’d like to dive deeper in any of the topics that I talked about on a regular basis, you can go to Rebecca

I’ve got a stack of free resources for you to dive into. I can’t wait to catch you next week for our next episode of Hello, Rebecca Ray. Lovely ones.

Thank you so much for listening to Hello, Rebecca Ray. If you’ve got something meaningful from this episode, and the most meaningful thing you can do is jump on over to wherever you listen to your podcast episodes, and leave a review.

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